Part III: Creation: Saturn, The Cube, The Sabbath Day and The Blackening

by Jakob Thelen on October 6, 2014

8thThe Seven Planets: Their Names and Gods

Returning again to the numbers of the first segment, from a cosmological standpoint the correspondence between seven and thirteen makes perfect sense: the 7-day Creation corresponds to the 7 Classical Planets, and Aries (the Ram) could be viewed as either the 1st or the 13th Zodiac. Certain signs will be explored in great detail in a later installment.

The seven days of the week in English and other languages have been named for each of the seven ‘planets’ of antiquity [from Gr. “planetese,” wanderer], and are also named for characters of Classical Myth.

Below may be seen the days of the week in English, compared to their French and Latin correlates along with the three Abrahamic Holy Days and the planets / deities for which they are named:

 A chart similar to that above could be built for the days of the week in the Vedic system:

ENGLISH                   SANSKRIT (pro.)            DEITY                                               COLOUR               PLANET

Sunday                        Ravivar                              Lord Surya                                       Red                          Sun

Monday                       Somvar                               Lord Shiva;                                     White                      Moon

 

Parvati

Tuesday                       Mangalvar                         Ganesha; Kali;                                Red                          Mars

Durga; Hanuman

Wednesday                  Budhvar                            Lord Vishnu; Lord Vithal            Green                   Mercury*

(Avatar of Krishna)

Thursday                     Guruvar                              Vishnu & all Avatars                     Yellow                     Jupiter

 

Friday                         Shukravar                        Mahalakshmi (Divine                White                      Venus                                                                                                 Feminine); Durga;

Saturday                      Shanivar                             Lord Shani / Saneeshwara           Black                    Saturn

*The actual Hindi word for the planet of Wednesday is Budha, and its associations are certainly intriguing (to be seen in due time). All major alchemical phases are here alluded to through the colour attributions, though this will be the subject of a later installment.

It is worth pointing out that, much like the Islamic Ramadan, worshipers of Shiva fast from sunrise to sunset on Moon-day, and are not to eat until after prayer. Muslims fast for one lunar cycle, beginning one day after the new Moon and further determined by the Crescent (this occurs in the ninth month, Ramadan). This was actually a pre-Islamic practice that existed throughout the Near-East as far as Iraq, and was likely adopted from the nearby Sabaean culture living in Yemen (the biblical Sheba to be precise, hence the name) and Western Arabia. The Sabaeans allegedly had Seven Temples, each dedicated to one of the planets. Before it was adopted by Islam, the fast lasted from moon-rise to moon-set and was, obviously, in veneration of the Moon (this was most likely dedicated to Sin, derived from the older Sumerian and Assyro-Babylonian cosmology; some maintain that the word Sinai is derived from this Lunar deity). Muhammad changed it to last from sunrise to sunset.

In the Vedic practice, the one-day lunar fast is called Somvar vrat – named for Soma, also referred to as Chandra – the Moon.

(The word Soma has another association: a potent entheogen [Ancient Gr. Entheos = “full of the god” + genesthai = “to come into being;” “to manifest the inner divine”], more commonly called a psychedelic. Many have considered it synonymous with the Greek “Mead,” or “Nectar of the Gods,” but to my knowledge this is not substantiated given what we know of the latter’s alleged ingredients. It is likely that “Soma” is the A. muscaria mushroom, consumed for mystical purposes by everyone from Siberian shamans to bears and reindeer! Its distribution is well-established, ranging from Siberia through the Hindu Kush Mountains, the Mediterranean and even Central and South America, where it is also a religious Sacrament.)

The Moon has also been called Indu, likely related to the word Indus, the river that “flows from the heavens” and the word from which we obtain “Hindu,” later to become the Persian “Hindustan” – the land of the (H)Indus. Notice the striking alignment between the ancient Hindustani and Greco-Roman/Nordic-Germanic systems.

(The Indus river, flowing from the Tibetan Plateau runs almost through the center of the Ladakh region of modern Pakistan, and it was East of this river that had been dubbed “Hindustan” by the Persians. This is now upper India, not far from the Northern Pakistani Hindu Kush region.)

Saturn: The Synthesis of a Christian Redemption, a Hindu Curse, and a Jewish Seal

Christ was born under the sign governed by Saturn – the Sabbath (appropriately), that of the Goat – cousin of the creature beneath which he would also die. The Goat of Capricorn, being dual in nature (domesticated versus wild), is symbolic of stability in dynamism and vice versa. This perfectly describes the two natures of Saturn (slow-moving – stability; in ancient times, furthest from the Sun – dynamic / extreme) and the Cube (aesthetically evocative of Stability; dynamic in that “Doubling the Cube” is impossible in Euclidean geometry [this fact being brought to the attention of man by the Oracle of Apollo]). The Lord of Saturn in Vedic Cosmology is Shani, or Saneeswara, which is a contracted phrase literally meaning the one who moves slowly – the significance of which is revealed in Saturn’s slow orbit.Bearing in mind that Christ was born under Shani, it is curious to see that the so-called Saint-Thomas Christians of India have been more accurately referred to as Ishannis – followers of Issha, Jesus.

It is in Johannes Kepler’s Mysterium Cosmographicum that he ascribes The Cube to this planet. In Plato’s Timaeus this solid is associated with the Earth element (Capricorns, from December to January ruled by Saturn, happen to be Earth signs). Evidence for the cube connection to Saturn can also be found in the most sacred place of all Islam: Mecca. The Kaaba (Ar. Cube) is circled exactly seven times, corresponding to one circle for each planet. Squaring the circle is a very well-known problem posed by ancient mathematicians, and is alluded to in the Freemasonic symbols the square and the compass. In fact it appears to be impossible with these two tools alone. Here, in Mecca, we see the opposite: circling the square. A rather elegant rendition of this concept may be seen below.

When the Cube is viewed from one of its vertices, it reveals The Star of David (the hexagram or six-pointed star). Curiously, at Saturn’s pole there exists a hexagonal cloud-pattern 8,600 miles long. Discovered in 1980, the prominent theory is that it is a manifestation of vortical wind-patterns at its center, but the most recent footage – the clearest yet – shows no sign of them. It rotates counter-clockwise, as do the Muslims around Kaaba.

(Circumambulation, from the Latin circum + ambulatus = “to walk around,” is the religious act of circling a Sacred idol or location. Though in modern times we most commonly think of Mecca, it is an incredibly common practice in both the Vedic and Buddhist systems. The former often circle altars or idols, while the latter circle the same and pillared prayer wheels. It is likely that this practice occurred at Mecca prior to the Muhammedan purification, as it is well-known that The Sacred House is pre-Islamic.)

6th

Illustration above: Left: Liquid Water; Right: Ice Crystal; from Wikipedia

7th

Illustration above: Squaring the Circle and vice versa.

(Han Ying (c.100BC) may have been the first on record to note the contrast between the hexagonal structure of snowflakes and the pentagonal arrangement of flowers [not all flowers are pentagonal, but a great number are, and the vast majority reveal one of the Fibonacci numbers – with 3, 5, 8, 21 and 34 being particularly common. The larger numbers are frequently expressed in daisies and sunflowers]. The extent of diversity inherent in snowflake formation is nothing short of astounding considering the simplicity of its structure.)

8th

9th

Illustration: Snowflake. By Wilson Bentley. Obtained via Wikipedia

10th

Illustration: Snowflake. By Wilson Bentley. Obtained via WikiPedia

Bear in mind these associations: The Black Cube (Kaaba) is circled counterclockwise seven times; the Cube from Vertex or Hexagon (Star of David or Seal of Solomon) rotates counterclockwise at Saturn’s pole; Saturn, the Seventh Classical planet – the furthest, darkest, governing the darkest time of year – corresponds to Shabbat and Christ’s birthday; Christ, born under Saturn, bears the Cross – the unfolded cube; the Planet of Shabbat is given the color black in the symbolic calendrical system of the ‘Hindus.’ The Yantra of Shani or Saturn is, therefore, none other than the Hexagon, the Star of David.

11th

Illustration above: Cube viewed from vertex revealing hexagon, superimposed upon the Seed of Life. Obtained from: http://www.informatik.com/mathfun/

In most pantheons, Saturn is associated with Justice, Time and Death, such as the Greek Kronos, god of Time, and the Vedic Shani, a great teacher and great punisher, older brother of Yama – god of Death, the latter’s name meaning “twin.” Both are judges of the soul, and Yama is said to be the first man to have died.

(Does this sound familiar? Abel was the first man to die, murdered by his twin brother. Cain was a crop farmer, while Shani is a protector of property. In Judaeo-Christianity there is the curse of Cain [777 – an allusion to Saturn?], and in India the mere mention of Shani is a bad omen. Cain and Abel were both sons of Adam, meaning both man and “to be red” – red being the colour ascribed to Surya, the Vedic Lord of the Sun, father of Shani and Yama. The colour of Shani [black] unites it with Kaaba, and the Yantra or figure itself unites it with the Star of David. To be clear, a Mantra is a religious chant, and a Yantra is a religious image or symbol. All deities have their own Mantras and Yantras.)

12th

Illustration above: Shaniswaran (Saturn) Yantra, synonymous with the Star of David. Obtained via http://www.yantramandala.com/

Though magic squares are not to be discussed for some time, it is worth pointing out now that the square sum of Saturn is 45, as is the gematria of Adam (aleph1 + dalet4 + mem40 = 45):

4          9          2

 

3          5          7          אדם    =       45

 

8          1          6

 

*While the square sum is 45, the magic sum is 15 (e.g. 8+5+2=15).

Black-Hole Sun in the Garden of Sound

The Black Stone of Islam is analogous to Sol Niger – The Black Sun of Alchemy, being emblematic of ‘the blackening’ in the first stages of transmutation. This phase has been associated with putrefaction: Saturn, in antiquity, was associated with similar concepts – being the furthest from the sun it was seen as the “darkest” of the planets (with Mercury / Thoth-Hermes as its opposite). This makes perfect sense in light of the fact that virtually all Saturnian deities are somehow associated with death, whether through justice and judgment or time and decay. Given that man was created on the 6th day and the Fall appears to have taken place on the 7th (it may easily be the 8th), it would make perfect sense for this to be synonymous with the entropic phase of Alchemy and Saturn, the ruling planet of Capricorn – time of brooding darkness in the heart of winter. Christ was born under this sign (as noted above) – under the darkness of ‘Herod’.

Strangely, “The Death Star” in Star Wars is identicalto Saturn’s moon, Mimas (pro. My Mass/Miss). Yoda, the wise opposite of Darth (black), is green: this is highly comparable to the Vedic week, in which Shani is Black, Death, while Mercury – planet closest to the Sun – is Green. Budha, planet of Wednesday, is believed to be incredibly wise in all sciences and filled with compassion (like Thoth-Hermes Trismegistus, Thrice Greatest in Religion, Philosophy and Science). The Kaaba (Saturn) is Black, while The Prophet – Muhammad, who purified the Stone – is described as Green. (See: Qur’an; Life of Muhammad) The alchemical Sol Niger is Death, while The Green Lion (V.I.T.R.I.O.L.) is associated with Purification and Dissolution.

13th

Illustration above: Mimas, Saturn’s Moon. Photo taken by Cassini mission. From Wikipedia

14th

Illustration above: The Death Star. Taken from film, obtained via Google images

All of these connections lead us to deduce that Saturn, Shani, Cain, Solomon’s Seal and Shabbat are one with The Black Cube, The Seventh Sun (it is also closely linked with the Fall of Man, as will be seen). It is “The Blackening” of Alchemy personified in the Seventh Day and the first human death. As mentioned in a previous segment, the cube possesses 28 possible paths, synonymous with Genesis 1:1, and possesses 6 faces – aligned with the word “In the beginning.” 28 is the sum of numbers one through seven.

 

*A curious side-note pertaining to Saturn in modern media: Some of you may have grown up watching Pinky and the Brain. You may or may not have noticed that, in the theme song, at the very instant that they chant “We’ll take over the world” a giant magnet pulls Saturn to the Earth. Also, aside from Sheldon Cooper’s oft-seen 73 t-shirt, he frequently wears a red shirt with Saturn on it.

 

{ 43 comments… read them below or add one }

Joshua Tilghman October 6, 2014 at 6:44 pm

I apologize to Jakob and my readers, but Durga; Hanuman and the Avatar Krishna will not show up in the deity column near the beginning of the post. I have been playing with the format and for some reason wordpress will not let me install the terms in the right column. Puzzling. Thank you for taking note.

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Linda October 6, 2014 at 7:20 pm

I miss the older type of posts……………….this feels to away from what was started……

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Jakob Thelen October 14, 2014 at 7:30 pm

Linda,

I’m sorry you feel that way, this segment is meant to serve as a foundation for what’s to come in Parts IV-V, alchemical and cosmic/astrological explorations of Scripture. Elements similar to Parts I-II resurface in Part VI, but from this point on it is predominantly a symbolist series with number recurring only occasionally. Hopefully you can enjoy what’s to come.

Jakob

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Robert October 7, 2014 at 5:14 pm

Jakob,

I am following you, loyally trying to take it all in. You cover and correlate a lot of information that is not that well known. So in one sense it is interesting in that it is novel. I especially like the little tidbits like the origin of the word “Hindu”. You also highlight things in advance, like squaring, which you intend to explain in later posts. In so doing, you are asking us to suspend a natural desire to fully connect all the dots until you are done giving us the tour of all the dots. So I am assuming that you will eventually tie up a lot of loose ends out of which will come a useful understanding that anyone can apply. Am I right? I need that final connection because I learn by connecting concepts, rather than characterizing bits and pieces. I was horrible at memorizing vocabulary for foreign languages, or understanding Hebrew grammar that has more exceptions than rules. I did not do well in learning the times table for arithmetic either, but I excelled in algebra…concepts. The best conclusions I can gather from these three posts so far is that there is a lot of similarities and potential interconnections between areas of knowledge, and if were to take the time to study and focus on any one of them, I might get a firm understanding of how it all works and what it means. I guess I might be impatient like the Karate Kid, washing and wiping, all these preliminaries, and eager to get to the real thing.

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Jakob Thelen October 8, 2014 at 11:02 pm

Robert,

Thank you, I know it’s a lot to soak up. I’m glad that you can appreciate my inclusion of etymology, I personally find it to be a very rewarding study. Haha I apologize, I wrote it as a gradual unfolding and originally intended to send all of them at once (there would have been no need to pause). You are correct, most if not all loose ends will be tied off. Squaring, though, receives little attention. In essence, the exoteric symbolism is generally believed to be that one must Square their actions and Circumnavigate the obstacles on the path of life. Esoterically, given that the Circle is symbolic of Spirit while the Square is Matter, we may posit that it means one must cultivate spirit within oneself while still alive (circle or spirit within square or body). This is just my own deduction, and I am not a Freemason.

That is certainly fair, though the overall goal behind Part I was to build a foundation through webs of concepts:
7: Creation; Seed of Life; Colour Spectrum; Diatonic Scale; facial perceptive orifices; Classical Planets; Chakras / glands; sum of first seven Fibonacci sums yield 33 (13+8+5+3+2=33);
33: Life of Christ; Masonic degrees; Qabalistic Paths including Daath; melting point of water in Fahrenheit; spinal cord; rise of the sun a second time in the same spot;
37: Wisdom; minimum gestation period; Miracles of Christ; 37 goddesses adjacent to Enlightenment;

I had hoped that some of these would be assimilated, enough that I could build on as we proceed; but I know they were dispersed throughout a large amount of text (this is why I try to incorporate charts wherever possible). Lol I’m liking the movie references, especially that one. Though I will build on what is in this segment, ideally one would take away the following:

“Bear in mind these associations: The Black Cube (Kaaba) is circled counterclockwise seven times; the Cube from Vertex or Hexagon (Star of David or Seal of Solomon) rotates counterclockwise at Saturn’s pole; Saturn, the Seventh Classical planet – the furthest, darkest, governing the darkest time of year – corresponds to Shabbat and Christ’s birthday; Christ, born under Saturn, bears the Cross – the unfolded cube; the Planet of Shabbat is given the color black in the symbolic calendrical system of the ‘Hindus.’ ”

The symbol of Shani, or Saturn, is the Hexagon in the Hindu system; the Cube was assigned to Saturn by Kepler; Plato assigned the Cube to the Earth element, that which rules Saturn in Astrology; Saturn rules Capricorn (Christ’s sign), a goat – related to the Lamb; Black’s opposite is Green in Alchemy, religion and Star Wars (nearly a religion in itself); furthest from the sun is Black (Saturn), closest is Green (Mercury). The latter, so far, is seen in Yoda and Muhammad. The first stage of Alchemy is called “The Blackening,” a time of decay, comparable to The Fall.

Thus, Saturn – the seventh planet – is the Sabbath Day, the Fall of Man, and the Cube / Hexagon (Cube from vertex) signifies Six Cardinal Directions with its six faces. Saturn is the Celestial Fallen State. The Spiritual Sun falls to the realm of the Material (Saturn, Cube/Hexagon), or, Summer falls into Winter (Capricorn is December-January). I hope this was helpful.

Sincerely,

Jakob

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Paula Kempf October 7, 2014 at 5:32 pm

AMAZING I loved reading this one Brother Joshua Tilghman 😀

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Jakob Thelen October 8, 2014 at 11:08 pm

Thanks! I’m actually the writer of this series, but I am quite indebted to Josh for accepting it as a part of SOS. There’s still three more to come!

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Robert October 7, 2014 at 6:08 pm

Josh,

Maybe the best way to display a complicated chart in wordpress is to convert it to a picture format and blow it up to a decent size. Try it and see if it is possible. You can google how to convert Word to Picture format or you can try using this free online converter http://www.zamzar.com/convert/doc-to-jpg/

If you have to blow it up too much you will get a blurry chart.

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Robert October 7, 2014 at 6:45 pm

Jakob,

I am having some afterthoughts about elements of Islam you have included as part of the overall scheme. Some people do not include traditional Islam as a valid “spiritual” channel. I think the now famous debate between two liberals, Ben Afflec and Bill Maher https://www.google.com/#q=debate+over+islam
might explain why some people these days tend to separate out Islam as not another religion to be respected like all other religions, but something “else” and something potentially dangerous, even when practiced by moderates. So if you find connections that validate Islam as a religion that has positive spiritual significance, this would be of great interest to me. I am also thinking that Muhammad is accused of copying things from other religions and then putting his stamp on it, or a distorted version of it, so that the connections could be to these original things, not to Muhammad’s allegedly stolen and corrupted versions.

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Jakob Thelen October 9, 2014 at 1:06 am

Robert,

I’d like to say that I promulgate no one perspective in this series, I present what I’ve seen and offer my deductions. The rest is entirely up to the reader’s own opinion. Also, no aspect of anything in this series is remotely influenced by modern geo-political trends, such as the current turmoil in the East. The fact that a small number of Muslim nations are involved in this conflict has no bearing my references to Islam. Similarly, the conflict between the two Semitic Peoples of modern Israel is equally irrelevant. There is no religion in the world that at its core promotes violence against another human being. I am not in favour of or against anyone or any religion, the only thing I explicitly denounce is violence.

The notion that Islam is not a “valid” spiritual channel is in itself an invalid statement: some of the most profound streams in the world originated or at least flourished in Islam, for instance the Sufi and Druze sects. I saw some of that debate (roughly ten minutes, the length of the clip I found), and to be honest it had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with either the Tradition or the Tenets of Islam. It was politically motivated, and focused on crimes in Modernity – crimes that should certainly not be taken as representative of Historical or Modern Islam, any more than the witch-burnings are representative of Christianity.

Sorry, “If” I find something of “positive spiritual significance”? Essentially implying that such is not easily found? Their conception of God is one of the purest in the world, and is in itself a source of great Spiritual Insight. It is forbidden for a Muslim on Pilgrimage to kill any animal or insect – a sign of Great Spirituality – to have mercy for insects, this is more typically associated with Buddhism. It is also forbidden to uproot any living plant. Therefore they actually acknowledge the ever-presence of Spirit to a greater extent than some of the earlier Abrahamic streams. This is not the product of a vile philosophy! Unfortunately some material was accidentally omitted from this segment, material that touched on some of these concepts.

Maher mentioned that it is ‘only in the Islamic World’ where you can be “killed” for “saying the wrong thing, writing the wrong book,” etc., yet this is exactly what the Roman Catholic Church did to philosophers, theologians, scientists, doctors and herbalists (witches) for centuries! (Along with countless other groups of people, including non-Catholic Christians such as Gnostics and Isshanis.) While stoning occurs in some countries today – which is crazy, our repertoire once ranged from stoning to drawing and quartering to burning! This is far from the ‘poster-image’ of Christian Doctrine, just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS today. Al-Qaeda, in fact, consists of non-Muslims: they drink alcohol and go to strip-clubs, both of which are firmly condemned by the religion. All intoxicants are forbidden, as with promiscuity.

It is my firm opinion that there is no “something else,” something “dangerous” in Islam, there is nothing in the Qur’an that is not paralleled in some way in The Bible (or the oft-disturbing Talmud for that matter). The Black Spot staining the heart of Mankind is not bound by any religious system; it’s universal. If we judged a lasting Spiritual Tradition according to an impermanent Cultural Trend (a trend that is, in fact, largely a response to oppression and violence on behalf of the USA and UN), not only would we deprive ourselves of many a cultural and spiritual gem, but we would also defy the Commandments of the very Teacher we take as our Shepherd: Judge not, lest ye too may be judged. So far as Muhammad’s ‘stealing’ of older practices, to a degree this is the case (though their Scripture openly acknowledges its origins), but the same argument could be made for literally every single institutionalized religion in the world (save perhaps Hinduism, that would be tricky). Circumcision and Baptism are both global practices that predate Torah. But is that theft? Or is it simply an acknowledgment and acceptance of something that possesses a certain degree of merit – whether physical or spiritual? The Qur’an praises the Mother of Christ as a model woman, and accepts all Prophets of the Old and New Testaments. If this is theft, Christianity is equally guilty for embracing the same Spiritual Teachers and adopting practices that existed both locally and globally before the New Testament was written. I would like to emphasize once again that I favour none over another, my “home” as it were is in the Old and New Testament, but in my opinion it is not superior to any other religious text. All of them are beautiful and filled with Wisdom!

I hope this is not construed as offensive in some way, and if you are truly interested in learning of Islam’s gems, this is a good place to start: http://ias.org/sufism/introduction-to-sufism/. I’m sorry this is so long.

Most Sincerely,

Jakob

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anny October 13, 2014 at 12:09 pm

Hello Jakob,

I completely agree with your reply to Robert’s comment. I feel exactly the way you do about the Islam as such and religions in general.

And I have in fact read the same accusation of theft against Christianity who were supposed to have stolen it from the ancient Egyptians. Where we are talking about a universal truth, and different cultures have different interpretations of it, it is only logical that people build on that what was before them. The only thing that is wrong about it in my opinion is when one then claims to have the sole truth, as Christianity did but others also.

I too believe that the core of every religion is pure. And in every religion you will find people from those who are saints to those who are capable of the worst and interpret everything to fit their own agenda. There is no way we should judge the first for actions and teachings of the last. In fact, we should not judge at all as you very well put.

My family has quite some experience with people of different religions as (ex) Christians who lived in Israel between Jews and Muslims, with whom we got on fine, and who have two Vietnamese Buddhist daughters in law. In fact, while I was reading these comments I was interrupted by the unexpected visit of an Algerian friend of my daughter – a doctor who currently studies for a medical specialization in Germany and came to Holland for a holiday – who is very openminded and wants to live in peace with everybody, of whatever religious or national background. He will be staying overnight with our son and his Buddhist wife at her invitation. So peaceful coexistence is possible if only we make the effort. It makes life so much more interesting too, don’t you think?

Anny

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Robert October 13, 2014 at 2:35 pm

Anny,

I understand Jakob’s view and yours also, which has generally been mine. But the “other view” held by others and also in my mind for consideration is that mainstream Islam is in a category by itself which unchecked, has the seeds within it which given root, will lead to total repression of the rest of our planet. According to this “other view” today’s moderate Muslims are ignoring half of the basic precepts of Islam, imbedded in the Quran and the hadiths, and that are unchangeable, so that we are living on the edge of a volcano that can tip us all over the edge into the fire when the temporary good will of the moderate Muslims fades. This is the “other view”, not necessarily mine. But it is one I feel should be given some consideration. Please read http://www.provethebible.net/T1/Islam_and_jihad.htm, and tell me what you think.

Another thing to consider is whether there is some immutable law that “all” religions come from a source of goodness and light. Is this a law of the universe or wishful thinking?

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anny October 14, 2014 at 12:46 pm

Hi Robert,

Thanks again for your comment.

Without having read this link (I do not do that anymore and this title alone puts me off) I still refuse to place Islam in a separate category of its own. Within the extremist fringe of Islam there are a lot of dangerous possibilities yes, but the very same is the case with the extremist fringes of all other religions too. We should certainly pay attention to that but the answer is NOT declaring war on any of them. We have been doing nothing but for decades and where has it got us? I keep to my principle of treating everyone like people instead of enemies. As Jakob also already wrote above, with reference to Muslim extremism the West has not been exactly innocent in the matter ot its arising. I think we should address our own issues first before pointing fingers at others. Unconditional love remains my theme song. I think you knew that. And unconditional love can be tough too, if needed, but always treats people as people and not enemies. I do not have the answer how to deal with this but I do know that war and violence is not it.

When I wrote that I believe that the core of all religions is pure, as Jakob also wrote, I meant all major religions. I would not include religions or sects started by private persons or organizations for ulterior reasons. I do not really know much about these at all. But as far as all major world religions are concerned, yes, I do believe that. Of course I know that in all of them a lot has gone wrong later on but I also know that in all of them there have always been people who kept to this core and I believe that unconditional love is that core or at least part of it. My latest experience with my daughter’s Muslim friend yesterday and today only proved me right in this respect. A delightful young man who devotes his whole life to helping other people, Muslim or not.

You are of course free to call that wishful thinking but that is my focus. Expecting any religion whatever to have a bad core and origin is also a point of focus but I refuse to make that mine. I really hope that you will too.

Robert October 14, 2014 at 2:16 pm

Anny,

I think at some

Robert October 14, 2014 at 2:47 pm

Anny,

This has been an interesting discussion. I think on a one to one basis in dealing with people with every sort of background, we act out of a heart of optimism and harmony. That is exactly how I deal with Muslims people I meet. In fact I go a little out of my way to make sure I am on best behavior when encountering them. This is the power of love and acceptance that we as individuals can radiate to other individuals, no matter what. This is what I believe moves the collective universe towards its higher state, and what moves the universe around us to enhance and purify our souls.

Still, we are affected by the lower energies in the materially oriented world we live in. Like you, I have to try to rise above it. It helps for me to know what I am rising above, and for me, in this case, it is the revelation of a tragically basic and irreparable flaw in Islam, like no other flaw in other religions. The lives of the descendants of Ishmael are blessed according to the bible, and hinted at by the 137 cipher for the lifespan of Ishmael. But it is not blessed by this temporary 1500 year imposition on the world of a cult started by one man for political purposes…named Muhammad. The prognosis is not good because the tenants of Islam would have to change for the world to be safe. The terrorists and terrorist states are carrying out Muhammad’s last and final, forever binding instructions to destroy infidels and the government of infidels, to make way for a planet populated entirely by Muslims and under strict Shria law. We are the infidels. Jews and Christians, Buddhists, American Indians, Hindu, Sufi heretics of Islam, Bahai, you name it. The positive aspects of Islam were stolen by Muhammad from other religions and moderate Muslims who are educated, Westernized, or just humane at heart focus on them. and focus out the negative parts. But they are apostates of Islam. Most of us can live very happily with them. But it is an unstable condition. It is a reservoir which will nurture the terrorists and terrorists states. The only way to rectify this is to change the precepts of Islam. But Muhammad closed the Islamic canon when he died. He set himself to be the final Prophet. Most religions are evolving. Islam has no place to evolve to, except not being Islam.

Jakob Thelen October 14, 2014 at 8:07 pm

Anny,

I’m very happy to read that you agree so firmly, and yes you are certainly correct. The more cultures one studies, the more commonalities one finds (there are, of course, disagreements, such as between Buddha and Christ, but the common threads overshadow these). There is no “theft” as Robert describes, it is a shared inheritance that should be appreciated for its diverse unity.

It sounds like you have a very lovely family, it’s nice to hear that so many different religious followers can get along perfectly well with one-another (I’ve always believed this, but of course it’s nice to hear about it). Completely! How boring life would be if everyone was the same! Thank you for sharing with us. 🙂

Jakob

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Robert October 15, 2014 at 3:53 pm

Jakob and Anny,

I’m happy that your common disagreement with me has helped you two souls to become more familiar with each other. Maybe we can do this again sometime. 🙂

I think we should all live in harmony with one another. We share a common ideology with regard to tolerance and acceptance, and the brotherhood of man. But there is a voice out there saying ideology is nice, but it should not trump truth, and we should recognize when they conflict, even if at first it ruins those warm and fuzzy feelings we are used to from our ideologies. Sometimes we have to stop reinforcing our ideologies, move out of our comfort zone, open our eyes, and take another look. When you two are ready to do that, then read the reference I presented to you with the attitude of being objective. Maybe you will find fault with the content of the reference, and if you do, I would like you to share that with me. The reference is just a presentation of information and a conclusion with a different point of view. It is not propaganda. It will not take over your unconscious and sway you. You have the intellect and sound judgment to evaluate it. I would consider refusing to evaluate the content of the reference, and instead, rallying around the ideologies, as a cop out and hiding from what might be a little painful but necessary, and ultimately enlightening. It’s your choice.

Robert October 8, 2014 at 1:57 pm

Jakob,

I know you will not get to this until the weekend. So I will add to my last comment that, according to what I have read (if it is accurate) the black stone and Kaaba (Cube) were traditions from ancient cultures long before Islam, even before the forms of polytheism that existed on the Arabian peninsula when Mohammad was born in about 600 CE. The same for the traditions of the pilgrimage, praying five times a day, the counterclockwise circling of the Kaaba, and kissing the black stone.

I hope I didn’t sound too critical back there in my last comment. I only meant to say that there are some personalities that like details, like geologists who have the time of their lives characterizing all the types of interesting minerals and rock formations. My personality type gets lost if immersed in too many details and I need more links to connect things.

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Jakob Thelen October 9, 2014 at 1:13 am

Robert,

I was going to wait but I thought I might as well set an evening aside to casually go through the comments, so that I can edit knowing no one is waiting to hear from me. I’m really sorry that my other response is so long, I didn’t realize just how long it was until it was posted. So far as the origins of the practices you mentioned, I could not even dream of knowing how old some of them are. There are also countless elements that are original and distinct to Islam, along with some of the changes that were made to openly acknowledge pre-Islamic practices. To me, the age is of little importance. It is the meaning that is truly significant.

Quite alright, as you could probably tell by the above response I was actually more offended by the notion that Islam is not a valid religion. Hopefully the next segments are more in your favour.

Blessings,

Jakob

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Robert October 8, 2014 at 4:45 pm

Jacob,

OMG. Ishmael lived 137 years (Genesis 25:17).

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Jakob Thelen October 8, 2014 at 11:12 pm

Robert,

Wow! – Thank you for pointing that out! I’m actually surprised that it didn’t jump out at me during my last reading, but in any case a re-iterating of the words of a physicist may be called for:

“It [137 or 7.2973] would be one of the numbers you would signal to these aliens indicating that you have a scientific and technologically capable civilization on this planet.”

The fact that it is both embedded beneath the text and in the surface text is certainly Not Insignificant! Thanks for sharing that observation with us.

Sincerely,

Jakob

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Robert October 9, 2014 at 1:12 pm

Jakob,

Wow. Thanks for the sincerity that you have invested in responding to my comments. I look forward to the next three parts of this series. I am guessing that one of the purposes of recognizing some ciphers is that they appear as a commonly denominator throughout various expressions of spirituality, so hidden and mysterious, that they validate the veracity and profundity of all of spirituality. This is perhaps God or some higher power winking at us and sometimes making esoteric connections to be understood by those whose consciousness if ready for it.

I think I probably should not have introduced the recent media debate, because it was, as you suggest, more politics than religion, and thus distracting. I agree with you that the esoteric branches of Islam, those practiced by the Druze and Sufis, are the way to go, for the same reason that the more liberal and mystic forms of Christianity are more appealing to some of us than the more traditional, fundamentalist forms. That is the conclusion I came to after carefully trying to understand Islam and writing the four articles for SOS on Islam part 1 and 2, the Druze, and the Sufi. I attended a private Christian bible study that seemed to me to be overly prejudiced and disrespectful towards Islam, and stood up and objected and defended my reasons why. So I am on your side when it comes to respecting and appreciating all religions and cultures.

So that is why I worded my afterthoughts” comment above very carefully as “Some people … (have objections to Islam)…..”. I could go into more detail about what these “some people” think and why, but it would not be fair to you or SOS readers, or an adequate place, to do this in the comments section of your splendid series on ciphers. Maybe I could write a fifth article on Islam to try to encompass this.

I will say that from the point of view of these “some people”, the cipher connections do relate to the pre-Islamic elements of Kaaba and black stone of Arabian culture, and they would consider Muhammad’s “cleansing” of the Kaaba as “exploitation” of it, out of the frying pan of tolerant polytheism into the fire of intolerant, militant fundamentalism that considers people of all other religions to be “infidels.”

My reaction to all this is “well, this is par for the course for any form of spirituality when it degenerates into fundamentalism, not something new or relevant only to Islam. And I am probably right about that. Evenso, the “some people” consider this degeneration for most religions to result in half light, half darkness, so at least you get some light; but they consider Islam to be one big pill to swallow that is 80% sugar-coating and 2o% cyanide, eventually lethal in all respects. I do not know if I agree with that. But just in case there is some degree of truth to that, which I have a hunch there might be, I would like to be able to make a distinction that might allow the cyphers to apply to the pre-Islamic ways rather than Muhammad and Islam.

Tradition has it that the black stone was once white, and when it is purified again it will turn white. If that is the case, then Muhammad’s cleansing leaves a lot to be desired, and although the “submission” and other aspects of Islam may be bold and admirable to some of us, what exactly are Muslims in effect submitting to? Do Muslims love animals or just follow rules about them; why are they forbidden to keep and cherish pets? I also forgot to mention that the tradition of being on best behavior, not engaging in intertribal conflicts, etc., during the holiest month of the year, especially when on pilgrimage to the Kaaba, was a pre-Islamic practice.

But, I’ve gotten too caught up here and gone on and on further that I should have. Please look over http://www.provethebible.net/T1/Islam_and_jihad.htm. I am not aligned with the doctrines of this website, but I found this particular reference to be well written, clear, sincere (relatively), and with conclusions linked to information provided by Muslim sources. I knew a lot of this before, but four things I learned new were the (1) principle of abrogation (The prophet can change the laws of God), (2) justification for lying to defeat those that stand in your way, and (3) justification for making false treaties to get those you want to defeat off-guard. These are principles of Islam imbedded in the “holy” Quran that will never go away, and can be reignited like a time bomb at any moment in the hearts of moderates who have temporarily ignored them. This is just part of the core “cyanide” in the pill. The fourth new thing I learned is that Muslims kept Jews from entering Abraham’s tomb where all their patriarchs were buried. They did this for 700 years. They should have just claimed Abraham as their ancestor through Ishmael and shared the tomb as a common shrine; but they took it over and blocked access. This finally ended when the Rabbi of the IDF entered the tomb after it was captured in the Yom Kippur war, a war that nations of Muslims started. What other religion does things like this? If this is true, it introduces the issue of whether Islam should be given the same status, rights, and benefits of acceptance and tolerance as other religions that can be trusted to uphold the light. I don’t know the answer to this right now. It is complicated. There are millions of moderate Muslims who are currently peace-loving good people, and there is no doubt about honoring their ethnicity and sincerity, and rights as individuals, but a religion whose core dark beliefs, which can be activated like a switch, and are a severe threat to global stability… well that’s another story.

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Jakob Thelen October 14, 2014 at 10:26 pm

Robert,

No problem. Before I proceed, I would like to say that I mean no offense to you or any other readers. Admittedly, though, your statements seem to me a tad hypocritical.

“I will say that from the point of view of these “some people”, the cipher connections do relate to the pre-Islamic elements of Kaaba and black stone of Arabian culture, and they would consider Muhammad’s “cleansing” of the Kaaba as “exploitation” of it..” “Tradition has it that the black stone was once white, and when it is purified again it will turn white. If that is the case, then Muhammad’s cleansing leaves a lot to be desired…”

The Jews say the same about Christianity, that’s why they’re not Christian. This legend is purely allegorical, the only literal aspects being Muhammad and the Kaaba. It’s much, MUCH deeper than that, Muhammad is Green for a very profound reason – a reason that directly relates to this legend. Elijah is one of the most venerated of all people in the Old Testament, The Herald of Redemption; likewise with John in The New Testament. Muhammad is their total equal, as will be seen in Parts IV-V. They ARE one spiritual family, hopefully you may come to see this on your own terms.

Why do you try to deceive? First you say that a Bible Study “seemed to me to be overly prejudiced and disrespectful towards Islam, and [I] stood up and objected..” But then in practically the same breath you say “out of the frying pan of tolerant polytheism into the fire of intolerant, militant fundamentalism that considers people of all other religions to be “infidels.””

The exact same thing could be said for both Judaism and Christianity. The readers do not deserve this, though, therefore I digress.

“what exactly are Muslims in effect submitting to? Do Muslims love animals or just follow rules about them; why are they forbidden to keep and cherish pets?”

“just follow the rules,” you mean like the Jews Jesus talked about who conformed to the “613 commandments” yet knew nothing whatsoever about Loving God?

Why would I read a “prove the bible” website discussing Islam? – That’s the most biased source one could possibly find, and there exist Muslim websites that do the same to Christianity with equal efficacy. When you study Christianity, do you go to Jewish websites designed to “prove Ha-Torah”? Abrogation is only accepted by one stream of Islam, while we see this visibly in The Bible: An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth… Old Testament. If one should strike thee, offer him the other cheek… New Testament. So which is it? Hit back or peacefully resist?

Whether The Tanakh, New Testament or Qur’an, there is violence. In Christianity Peter was the only man accepted into heaven by God, because he cut the ear off -and I quote- “an infidel.” It’s not literal, and it doesn’t matter which of the three you look at. All have a dark history and all are at least primarily allegorical in nature. “The tongue is like unto a sword,” and suddenly God isn’t rewarding Peter for literally slicing someone’s ear off. Suddenly he’s not violent. This same line of reasoning should be applied to The Qur’an.

“Muslims kept Jews from entering Abraham’s tomb where all their patriarchs were buried. They did this for 700 years..” Maybe they were fed up with centuries of “No gentile shall enter here under pain of death.” A Jew is celebrated for killing a Gentile and a Gentile is killed for doing the same to a Jew (this is in the Talmud). Karaite Jews reject the authority of Rabbinic tradition including Talmud, just as Shi’ite Muslims reject the Caliphs and Hadith.

**The Qur’an says “To kill one life is to kill all life, to save one life is to save all life.” This is akin to the Teachings of Jesus, “As you have done to the least of these, so have you done it to me.”**

“after carefully trying to understand Islam,” okay, “Then as if reading your mind, he explains he needs the chain saw to trim his oak tree, not to chop off the heads of infidels.” Sounds like a very unbiased study, this is the fifth sentence! Frankly I was deeply bothered that such a hate-filled sentence would be published on a “Spiritual” website.

“SO I AM ON YOUR SIDE WHEN IT COMES TO RESPECTING AND APPRECIATING ALL RELIGIONS AND CULTURES.”

“A RELIGION WHOSE CORE DARK BELIEFS, WHICH CAN BE ACTIVATED LIKE A SWITCH, AND ARE A SEVERE THREAT TO GLOBAL SECURITY..”

To me it’s obvious how you feel. I mean you no offense but to me your words speak for themselves. Hopefully you can enjoy the next few parts, and I’d like it if we would be able to move on from this. All are entitled to their own opinions and, quite simply, ours differ in this regard. Perhaps throughout this series you will come to see an element of the spiritual light that does indeed exist in The Qur’an, just as it exists in The Tanakh and The New Testament.

Jakob

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anny October 15, 2014 at 8:20 am

Hello Jakob and Robert,

Robert, I answer here also in reply to your answer to my comment as there was no reply button anymore.

You write that you aim to be at your best behaviour and meet Muslims in person on a basis of love and acceptance. But how is that possible if you consider the core of what is most holy to them to be a danger? Somehow that must radiate through. I would feel it in their place as there would be something inside me that you could not accept. It is all right to disagree about things but thinking about their prophet the way you do at this moment is something else totally.

I also wonder how it could be that, where we all agree that in the course of history the pure core of our different religions has seriously suffered at the thoughts and deeds of some of their followers, that for the Islam the opposite seems to be possible according to you. In the case of Islam many splendid people eventually came forth out of a bad core, which seems to me to be completely in the reverse direction of the general trend and not very likely.

Just like Jakob I have to say that I cannot follow your (?) reasoning at all and I do not understand why you would want to refer to a website that obviously is anti Islam oriented. Of course Jakob is right and Muslim and Jewish sites do comparable things. I myself experienced something like that in Safed where a rabbi gave a Christian group I was with at the time a lecture which turned out to be some sort of sermon that was meant to prove how wrong the New Testament was. And then he was surprised that none of us was willing to buy the book he had written about the subject. I would have been willing to read it if he had just written it as his opinion but not when he pretended to bring us the truth.

Jakob, I am glad with your answer as you have so many more facts and information at your fingertips, it seems. I have read a lot about all these subjects during my life but I hardly ever remember details.

As far as the ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth’ is concerned, I once heard a rabbi explain it as follows: this commandment was given in a time when people used to kill other people for the slightest offense, and sometimes even for no reason at all. For such people the concept of turning your cheek would obviously go way too far, so the commandment was given to answer only in kind, and only once. The idea was not to encourage to take revenge but to limit the revenge to the thing that was done to you and no more.

Robert, I think you know that I do not mean any offense to you either. Let us just agree to disagree if you do not feel like reviewing the situation. Did you ever check out any of Karen Armstrong’s books though? She did write two expressly in order to explain Islam, and Muhammad, in an objective and positive way to the world after 9/11.

Blessings to both of you,

Anny

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Robert October 15, 2014 at 11:20 am

Anny,

Thank you for the interaction. And of course I understand that you do not mean me or anyone any harm. We agree to disagree which is an honorable ideology among friends. I am only slightly disappointed that you would not review the reference I provided, because I would have valued your feedback regarding it. I did not find it anti-Islam, or I would have discounted it. It is very informative about Islam based on Islamic sources. I found the information in it accurate and fair, and the conclusions somewhat compelling. But I have still maintained my distance and objectivity. I have acted as an intermediary between it versus you and Jakob. I, at this point, as yet, have no input from either one of you regarding the information and conclusions presented in the reference. So my impression of the veracity of the reference remains unchanged. Anyone else is welcome to read the reference and offer comments on it, to help me better evaluate it.

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anny October 15, 2014 at 12:56 pm

Hello Robert,

Regarding your reply to my comment I would like to remind you of the way I work. I do not base my opinions on carefully researched things that other people have written but largely base them on intuition and on things I read in the course of my life of which I only remember the essence and hardly ever any details. I am not trying to prove anything or to convince anyone of what I see as my truth.

As far as reading links referred to me by other people, I only do that if the subject appeals to me. The title you proposed did not and I have to be very careful with my emotional health right now. There has been going on too much in my life this last year, only part of which you know. I really do not need to read things that I am afraid might hurt me in any way. And things like you wrote about the Islam today do hurt me at the moment. I cannot possibly believe they are true. And I am talking about the core here, not about extremism.

I am not capable of giving you most of the sources I read during the last decades, and which partly helped me to form an opinion, but I did suggest to read the books by Karen Armstrong about the Islam which certainly attributed largely to my conclusions. She really absorbed everything she wrote about the Islam and Muhammad both from people she met personally in the Middle East and elsewhere and lots and lots of literature, probably properly documented in the books as well, as she is a scholar. She is greatly appreciated by Muslims, Jews and Christians alike and probably also by Buddhists as she wrote a book about Buddha as well. Her greatest passion is compassion, a subject she also wrote about. I value her opinion as she writes honestly about everything but never puts anyone down.

I know you are a scientist and a scholar and you need to research things; I do not. So if that means we come to different conclusions in the end, so be it. I only follow my guideline of unconditional love and cannot condemn or judge anyone or anything anymore.

Anny

Robert October 15, 2014 at 11:39 pm

Jakob,

I will look forward to reading parts IV and V to see the connections that you will be making. I agree it is time to move on. I appreciate your trying to address at least one issue mentioned in the reference -abrogation. But your statement that only one stream of Islam believes in abrogation is your opinion unsupported by fact. There are many, many similar issues addressed in the reference that are simply an accurate assessment of Islam, and not part of Christian apologetics. I am hoping somewhere in the back of my mind that someone will address these issues fairly and squarely and convince me that the reference’s conclusions are no valid, so that I can go back to believing my cherished ideology that all religions can be treated the same. Somewhere inside I still want to be one of those kids who sing Kumbaya around the camp fire. Every other religion I am aware of can lead its followers closer to the light despite its frailties. I presently don’t see that happening with Islam unless its adherents come up with a totally new Quran and prophet. The more Westernized, educated, free thinking, spirit conscious people who were born into Islam may have done the best they could to effectively do just that without making it obvious, and done it out of the light in their own spirits, not out of the Quran and the traditional teachings of Islam. But maybe some of the material in your Part IV and V will shed more light on the matter.

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Jakob Thelen October 15, 2014 at 11:15 pm

Robert,

I wasted way too much time trying to respond to this – only to have it all disappear anyway, so I’ll sum it up. Stop trying to educate me about a religion you clearly hate, if I wanted to learn more about Islam I would ask my friends or consult the Qur’an as I have in the past. Not someone that makes jokes about decapitating infidels. Why do you assume I know nothing about Islam when I openly acknowledged the origins of Ramadan? – Stop trying to make me hate Islam by teaching me things I already know.

If I wanted to learn more about pre-Islamic Arabian culture I would consult Secular and Islamic Sources (not “Prove the Bible” or any other source wishing to dissolve Islam; as if Disproving The Qur’an somehow Proves The Bible). I would consult Scholars, not fools that have nothing better to do than pick on Islam as a way of somehow re-affirming their faith in The Bible. Anyone that truly loves their religion has no time to hate others; it’s time that could be spent appreciating your own! Yet you would rather spend your time trying to make me hate Islam than to simply rejoice in Christianity. As the Dalai Lama said, Those who feel the need to criticize other religions have a poor relationship with their own. I agree.

I’m very objective – which is why I’ve read such texts as The Enuma Elish and Secret Teachings in spite of reading the Bible. The latter, by the way, in light of what I’ve seen you will detest his views of Islam, as well as historical and institutional Christianity. Of this I have no doubt. Don’t throw stones when you live in a glass house, or better yet just don’t throw stones at all.

Your opinion has been more than adequately revealed, in spite of your trying to mask it. You are the farthest thing from one that employs scientific methodology in their research – as is demonstrated by your ever-present hatred for Muhammad in this discussion. Frankly I really don’t care what you have to say about Islam and I’m done talking about it. You’re biased yet you call Anny and I biased for not wanting to read a Christian refutation of Islam. Why not an Islamic refutation of Christianity? That’s out of the question, isn’t it. I’ve read a number of them, they’re equally valid and equally ignorant.

Your sources are inevitably biased because you are biased against Islam, therefore I have absolutely no interest in reading what a Fundamentalist Christian site has to say about a religion that rejects Christ as The Son of God (could the conflict of interest be any more obvious? Cherry-picking of data is to be expected!). I don’t neglect the fact that there is violence in The Qur’an, but it seems like you refuse to acknowledge the same in The Bible – which is hypocrisy. Not to mention it’s predominantly allegorical, so all this bickering is for nothing.

I don’t have time for this nonsense and I would greatly appreciate it if you would just move on from Islam. If you carry on anyway, don’t expect a response. Islam will continue to appear in this series, and so long as you wish to criticize Muhammad you will not hear from me. It’s more than a little childish what you’re doing, not to mention definitively Anti-Christian (Above all other commandments, Love Thy Neighbour As Thyself; Judge Not).

Jakob

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Robert October 16, 2014 at 12:18 am

Jakob,

You did not address the issues I brought up in a way that as yet has been convincing, and now you are ranting and attacking me. I never, ever questioned your integrity, sincerity, or maturity. I did not judge “you”. But no harm done. Let’s forgive and learn from this.

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Pedro October 15, 2014 at 11:56 pm
Pedro October 15, 2014 at 11:59 pm
Pedro October 15, 2014 at 11:59 pm
Pedro October 16, 2014 at 12:01 am
Robert October 16, 2014 at 12:13 pm

Pedro,

Recuing all of us from our selves. Thanks for the bigger picture.

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Robert October 16, 2014 at 2:15 pm

Anny, Jakob

Here is a Huffington Post article that contains persuasive arguments on your behalf. I am certain their is some truth to both sides of the coin.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/qasim-rashid/an-honest-open-letter-to-_b_5952448.html

Peace and good will,
Robert

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anny October 17, 2014 at 2:29 am

Hello Robert,

Thank you for this link to the Huffington Post. I found the article very interesting and encouraging. I am glad when Muslims themselves provide this kind of information that is very necessary for us outsiders who sometimes do not know what to believe anymore.

Thanks, I appreciate this very much.

Anny

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Jakob Thelen October 16, 2014 at 9:24 pm

Robert,

I do admit to speaking rather bluntly, I apologize. I was frustrated enough at your attitude toward Islam (and perhaps more importantly the fact that you were trying to sow these sentiments in Anny and I), and I became even more frustrated when my entire response disappeared. The first one was not as harshly worded, but this is no justification. Many of my closest friends are Muslims, I take great offense to someone saying that their faith is somehow less valid than mine.

Just to be clear, when I used the word “fool” I was not talking about you but rather the website you shared. I hope you didn’t misread that, if you did I apologize for my poor phrasing. I have no desire to insult anyone.

Though it may be true that you did not question my sincerity, you did call my objectivity into question because I chose not to read your link. I know you did not “judge” me, but you severely insulted and judged 1.6 billion people when you said what you did about Muhammad. I personally was very offended by that. I am not judging you as an individual, merely your opinion in this particular instance. It is not up to me to either confirm or refute elements of Islam. I’m not here to argue in favour of or against any religion, it’s just a simple fact that Islam fits into this series as much as Hinduism, Judaism and Christianity. Whether you embrace these elements as valid is totally up to you, and I’m not going to argue it.

Again, I sincerely apologize for my harshness.

Jakob

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Robert October 18, 2014 at 5:07 pm

Jakob,

No offense taken. I struggle to be more objective and find it elusive at times, even if I try on both sides of an issue like a costume, I have unconscious bias beneath the costume. It is sort of like being humble…when you think you are then there is a good chance that you are fooling yourself. A slippery kind of thing. The path to transcendence seems to me the best way to develop objectivity along with empathetic compassion. But no one can teach this directly to ano0ther. It can be irritating if someone tries. It has to come on it own to a soul that is reaching out for it. So I keep trying, not becoming dismayed when I miss the mark, just learning and moving forward.

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anny October 17, 2014 at 2:21 am

Hello Jakob,

Having finally gotten to the bottom of the page, it is time to give a comment on your article itself.

I must admit that although I find it very interesting, you bring so much together at once that I am not totally capable of grasping it all yet. Hopefully that will change when your next articles have been published.

I do have something to add. about one paragraph that is more in my own field. You write:

Given that man was created on the 6th day and the Fall appears to have taken place on the 7th (it may easily be the 8th), it would make perfect sense for this to be synonymous with the entropic phase of Alchemy and Saturn, the ruling planet of Capricorn – time of brooding darkness in the heart of winter. Christ was born under this sign (as noted above) – under the darkness of ‘Herod’.

I do not think that the Fall can have taken place on the 8th day. Eight is shmona, which equals shemen = oil; the oil that was used to anoint kings, who became then an anointed one, messiah, mashiach (358) which shares its numerical value with the serpent, nachash, which is related to the number six as the metal bronze, nechoshet, is the sixth metal in the system of metals.

Because of this I think the Fall took place at the end of the sixth day (brought forth by the serpent, connected to the 6) and lead man into the world of the seventh day, the world of duality, polarity and matter, and man is guided out of that world again by the mashiach, connected to the 8, into the world of the eigth day, which starts to lead upwards again.

The halfway point of this seventh day is the turning point which kind of connects it to the kundalini serpent, resting there in 3½ coils. It is the point in which the serpent’s downward drive has been crushed but the messiah’s upward guidance has not yet started. At least, that is how I interpret it.

Then you end this paragraph with: Christ was born under this sign (as noted above) – under the darkness of ‘Herod’.

The name Herod comes from the Hebrew verb charad, to tremble, to fear. Herod was also called tetrach, which is Greek and means ruler of the four. All in all this suggests that Christ was (is) born during the darkest period of the ‘year’, the turning point, when fear rules the fourth world of the seventh day. At that point Christ, the Christ consciousness is born and, I think the kundalini is slowly beginning to wake up in order to become the messiah to lead man out of this world of the seventh day into the eighth day of the beginning of higher awareness.

Following the analogy of the seasons though, the new light may have been born but things seem to get worse instead of better. It gets colder instead of warmer. First winter comes when all life seems to have gone but that is only appearance. In reality, under the surface, everything is preparing to burst out in bloom once spring arrives.

So we should never give up hope when all seems lost sometimes!

Love,

Anny

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Jakob Thelen October 17, 2014 at 1:13 pm

Hello Anny,

I apologize, I know it’s a lot to take in. The other segments are a lot too, but hopefully stuff will start to piece itself together.

Thank you very much for sharing this with me, I was unaware of both the etymology of Herod and the relation of Oil with 8. I find the meaning of Herod particularly interesting, I always suspected that it was at least partially symbolic of the material world – given the description in Matthew.

Regarding ‘The Fall’ on 8, my reasoning for this inclusion was twofold: the relation between Maschiach and Nekhash, and the fact that in the Julian Calendar Scorpio is the 8th Sign. It immediately follows 7, The Scales – Libra.

I, too am inclined to think that it was on the Seventh Day (under Saturn or Libra) that the fall occurred, but I included 8 as a possibility because it is the Serpent’s sign. These astrological correspondences are explored in fair detail in Part V.

Regarding the seasons, it only gets worse for us, in North America or in Europe (and some other areas). In Iraq and other near-equatorial regions, however, what we consider Winter is actually the beginning of their Wet Season, which leads into Spring. The Flood followed by the emergence of all creatures.

Thank you again for sharing this information with me.

Absolutely! -It’s always darkest before the dawn, as many have said.

Blessings,

Jakob

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anny October 18, 2014 at 6:16 am

Hi Jakob,

Thanks for your reply.

No need to apologize. It is a lot to take in but probably only because a lot of it is material that I am not familiar with. And the fact is that I do not have a good memory to put it mildly, and a selective one at that. Something that has meaning to me I mostly remember, at least its essence, but things that do not speak to me yet remain loose bits and pieces until I somehow have figured out how they hang together. And that is of course difficult when it is so much all at once. We’ll get there though in the end.

I can understand how you arrive at the conclusion that the Fall happened on the eighth day from the fact that Scorpio is the eighth sign but I cannont quite follow how you arrive at this conclusion from the fact that Nachash and Mashiach are related, even more so where you say not to have been aware of the connection of the oil which anoints the Mashiach with the number eight. I see the relation between the two words just as you do because they share the same numerical value but that does not connect the Nachash with the number eight for me. On the contrary, I see the progression from the sixth through the seventh into the eighth in the connection between these two terms.

You write that you too are inclined to think that the Fall took place on the seventh day, and on considering this I think you are right. I still think that the Nachash started the descent at the end of the sixth day but that did not lead immediately to the Fall as such. Looking at a synonymous story, the Israelites did not immediately become slaves after they arrived in Egypt either.

Did you know by the way that even in Israel today travelling from Israel to another country is called descending, laredet, and travelling, or moving, to Israel is ascending, la’alot. The people who move from Israel to another country are called jordim and the ones who emigrate from anotther country to Israel are called olim. These symbolical biblical terms are still in use though I doubt that the common man knows what they really mean.

What you write about winter in countries like Iraq (Israel too) and such is true but they also know the real winter in the mountainous regions. There is snow, often a lot of it, on the mountains almost every year. I have seen it myself when flying over Turkey, Iran and Iraq but also in Israel where Jerusalem is regularly covered under a thick blanket of snow, and I have stood on the summit of mount Hermon (boy, was that cold!) from where you could see the springlike conditions in the lower regions at the same time at that moment. We also sometimes went to the Hermon with our kids who loved to play in the snow there. There is not always snow though because of the climate change probably. Anyway, in the Middle East, where all three Abrahamic religions originated, they often get a taste of both conditions you describe, which I suppose must have had some influence.

Well, that is it. Have a great weekend.

Anny

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Robert October 22, 2014 at 5:17 pm

Jakob,

Your comments and Anny’s have caused me to reflect a lot more on my personal views about Islam and to read and study further to reach a better balance. I will accede that Islam is the legitimate third branch of monotheistic faith descended from Abraham, through Ishmael, introduced by the prophet Muhammad. I would like to send you a copy of a short article on Islam that I recently wrote that begins to look at the good characteristics and beliefs of moderate Muslims and distinguish them from the apostate characteristics and beliefs of terrorists. The moderate Muslims are the heirs of the promise to Abraham in Genesis that his descendants would bless the world. I would like you to review it and make suggestions, if you like. How do I get it to you?

Peace and Understanding,
Robert

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Jakob Thelen October 28, 2014 at 7:03 pm

Robert,

That’s nice to read, again I’m sorry for my irrational response – I was just frustrated. None of us are perfect. I would love to examine your article, my email is jakob.thelen9@gmail.com. A good historical example of peaceful Islam is in Moorish Spain and the Islamic Mediterranean of the Middle Ages. For 800 years they coexisted beautifully with both Christians and Jews, this being one of the Golden Ages of Jewish History up until 1492. Allegorically, the three may be unified through the Moon and Star, elements of Surah 19 among others, and the many legends surrounding Muhammad and Kaaba. I look forward to reading your article.

Most Sincerely,

Jakob

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