Part V: The Cosmic Christ, Temptation and Celestial Archetypes

by Jakob Thelen on November 16, 2014

eliptic zodiacSection One: The Tree of Temptation

I would like to apologize for the length of Part IV, I had not realized it was so long. This is why I’ve broken up the final two parts into further divisions, so that it’s easier to absorb and follow along. I would also like to state beforehand that, though much of what follows may possess some explanatory power, this does not mean that it is any more or less valid than the innumerable other paradigms. Many have alleged that anywhere from 7 to 60 equally correct interpretations exist.

The Celestial Garden and the Pillars of Paradise

And the lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.” – Genesis 2:8-10

Aside from offering a profoundly universal philosophy, the Trees of Life and Death are eloquently expressed cosmically at fixed times of the year, which I presume is at least partial source of what we read in Genesis. In Norse mythology Odin was crucified on a tree, which may be here equated with The Tree of Life. Life and Knowledge are two sides of the same thing, the key to which lies in the Cross: The trees “in the midst of the garden” are the equator, in the midst of the Earth seen from both hemispheres. The fact that the two trees are one is established by their dual-presence ‘in the midst of the garden.’

Together they form one event that is split in two: the Vernal and Autumnal Equinoxes – when the center of the Sun on the Ecliptic is aligned with the Equator – forming a Cross of an either ascending or descending nature. The ecliptic is the apparent path of the Sun across the sky. At this time the angle of the Earth leans neither toward nor away from the sun, the result of which is near-equal light and dark (day lasts slightly longer).

As the Earth wobbles to and fro rotating on its axis like a spindle, the sun appears to rise and fall in an almost serpentine manner throughout the year. In autumn, after the equinox the ecliptic ‘falls’ below the celestial equator, when the Earth begins to lean away from the sun. Therefore in autumn it appears to fall from North to South, while in spring we see the reverse – Ascension. When spring begins in the North autumn begins in the South simultaneously. These times of year are also frequented by storms, called Equinoctial Gales.

Terra Est Paradisus

The Fall and Redemption of Man occur simultaneously in opposite hemispheres annually in the times of Virgo and Aries, the Virgin Maiden and the Ram. The vernal equinox is March 21st; Aries is the first sign, March 21st to April 20th. The autumn equinox is September 22nd; Virgo is the sixth sign, August 23rd to September 22nd. Thus we see The Beginning and The End, The First and The Sixth.

Easter is celebrated at some point between March 22nd-April 25th, and was originally determined by the first full moon following the 21st of March. Pesach, or Passover, is celebrated from the 15th-21st / 22nd of Nisan – the first Hebrew ecclesiastical month; in 2013 this was March 25th – April 1st / 2nd. You will invariably find celebrations of Liberation at this time, whether Spring from Winter, Man from Sin, or Israel from Pharaoh.

From the above we see that Christ The Lamb and Mary The Virgin definitively epitomize The Vernal and Autumnal Equinoxes: Aries being the Resurrection of Light, reaching its pinnacle in the midsummer solstice (Gemini-Cancer), Virgo is the Fall of Man into Darkness, from which we reach our lowest point in the midwinter solstice (Capricorn). This is quite close to what would have been seen over 2,000yrs ago.


It is now necessary to list the twelve Zodiac, I have emboldened the Four Traditional Heads and their borders:

  1. Aries: The Ram: March 21stApril 20th
  2. Taurus: The Bull: April 21st – May 20th
  3. Gemini: The Twins: May 21st– June 21st
  4. Cancer: The Crab: June 22nd – July 22nd
  5. Leo: The Lion: July 23rd – August 22nd
  6. Virgo: The Virgin: August 23rd September 22nd
  7. Libra: The Scales: September 23rd – October 22nd
  8. Scorpio: The Serpent: October 23rd – November 21st
  9. Sagittarius: The Archer: November 22ndDecember 20th
  10. Capricorn: The Goat: December 21stJanuary 19th
  11. Aquarius: The Water-Bearer: January 20th – February 18th
  12. Pisces: The Fish: February 19thMarch 20th

Due to axial precession, all of these have since moved back roughly one position (The Summer Solstice, for example, is between Gemini-Taurus, while millennia ago it was closer to Cancer-Gemini). There is also a five-day discrepancy between the Julian and Gregorian calendars, so bear this in mind – particularly in relation to Christmas, which today would be December 21st. To make the Equinoxes and Solstices more visually accessible:




This is the ebb and flow of the solar ecliptic above and below the celestial equator. The equinoxes are Balanced while the solstices are Polarized, where Cancer is the Highest and Capricorn the Lowest ecliptic point. These dates approximately correspond to all of the following celebrations:

  1. Aries: The Spring Equinox, March 21st
    • Easter
    • Pesach (Pass-Over)
  1. Cancer: The Summer Solstice, June 22nd
    • Shavuot (Reception of Torah)
  1. Virgo: The Autumn Equinox, September 22nd
    • Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles)
    • Rosh Hashanah (Head of the Year)
  1. Capricorn: The Winter Solstice, December 21st
    • Christmas
    • Hanukkah (Festival of Lights)

The dates vary slightly but all are within close confines. It is from here that we receive the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn, naturally. Cancer, coming right after Gemini – The Twins, could explain why we read of two Mountains – Horeb and Sinai, which some have supposed are the mountains of Sun and Moon (Sin was the Sumerian name for the Moon).

Virgo and Aries

Aries, being the first sign, is“The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”(Rev 13:8) This provides a sound celestial explanation for both Easter and Passover that is chronologically consistent with present scholarship: the equator of the Earth perfectly intersects the Heart of the Sun on the ecliptic, and the ascendant solar path roughly completes the + figure while passing through The Lamb of Spring. This is the horizontal crossed by the ascending diagonal. The celestial equator is simply a projection of the Earth’s equator, and is Crossed only twice per year.

For now we will postpone most discussion of The Solar Christ and focus on Eden, Christ will be explored in the following section. Virgo the 6th is thereby associated with the Creation of Man (who was, originally, both Male and Female). Virginity is Purity, and she is governed by the planet Mercury – Wisdom and Divinity (being closest to the sun). From both of these facts we see that on the 6th Day Creation was complete in Virgin Perfection.

That which comes after Virgo is Libra, The Scales (balance, functionality). Libra is the 7th sign – The Day of Rest in Cosmic Equilibrium. It is the only inanimate sign in the entire Zodiac, reminiscent of Shabbat in more ways than one. It’s interesting to see the correspondence between Saturn The Blackening and Libra The Balance – both conforming to the 7th day: the former, The Fall; the latter, Rest. This is supported by the fact that Saturn is exalted in Libra (see below).

Scorpio follows The Scales, just as the Serpent follows completion and perfection of The Seven Days. Note that in pre-Roman times Libra and Scorpio were seen as one constellation. It is therefore possible that the Fall may have occurred somewhere between the two following the Autumn Equinox. They are, physically, quite intertwined.

Virgo stands above the ecliptic, Libra straddles it, and Scorpio is beneath it! -Following the Fall of Man through the Lady and Shabbat. On the Seventh Day the Virgin Mother of All Living accepted the Harvest Offering of Scorpio and fell below the ecliptic into Fall-Winter as Sol simultaneously fell below the equator. The “Virgin Mother of All Living” is a combination of Virgo and Eve, which also reveals her dual identity as Mary: The Virgin offers The Sacrificial Lamb sent to Redeem All Living, the living that died at the behest of Eve.

Through this flow of events I realized an arrangement of the Zodiac that may be effectively applied to Genesis: Aries: Head of Taurus, Gemini, Cancer and Leo; Spring-Summer 5 Virgo: Head of Libra, Scorpio, and Sagittarius; Fall-Winter 4 Capricorn: Head of Aquarius and Pisces; Winter-Spring 3 This is not a standard division and to my knowledge has never been done. Another approach would focus on The Four Heads, but in truth both are profitable. Here, under Aries we have exactly half of the Eden narrative; under Virgo we find the other half.

The Cherubim

While we’ve already seen Virgo, with Aries as head of Taurus-Leo we definitively see the Cherubim Guarding Eden: Taurus, in following Aries, is Guardian of the entrance to Eden. Leo, in preceding Virgo, Guards the exit of Eden. Thus the Bull and Lion are the Twin-Guardians of Spring-Summer from April-May to July-August, Beginning and End of the time of Life!

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” – Genesis 3:24

Of the Cherubim WikiPedia states:

The concept is represented in ancient Middle Easternart as a lion or bull with eagles’ wings and a human face…”

The associations are quite clear. The eagle’s wings could simply denote celestial status, as with those seen on the Egyptian Sun-Disk. All that remains to be explained is the ‘flaming sword’. This, however, will be covered in detail in the following segments; all in its proper place and time.

{ 59 comments… read them below or add one }

Joshua Tilghman November 16, 2014 at 11:09 am


Another great post. The traditional interpretation of Revelations 13:8 has never made much sense. You’re information on Aries and Virgo explains it quite well. All this shows us that you simply cannot separate Biblical concepts and the Zodiac, something which mainstream Christianity is still hesitant to accept. Thanks for taking us on this informational journey that is beginning to open up the cosmic Christ to us.


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 11:45 am


Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it. That is very true, it is quite impossible to separate Zodiac and Scripture – which is confusing in some ways, but profitable in others. It has been my pleasure, there is still much to be seen with the Cosmic Christ and, in Part VI, 666.



quentin November 16, 2014 at 12:32 pm

I love that picture and was have been curious if people bon in different zodiac signs had similar traits because the path we came to this earth was similar to the yellow line shown and possibly our departure as you see so many die near their birthday as well


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 11:56 am


You actually have Josh to thank for the picture, I agree it was a good choice. That’s interesting, I’ve never really noticed if there’s a correspondence between birth and death; definitely something to consider.



Robert November 16, 2014 at 5:29 pm

About Odin,

In Norse mythology, Oden hanged himself on the Tree of the World for nine days and nine nights, piercing himself with his own spear in order to learn wisdom that would give him power in the nine worlds.


Robert November 16, 2014 at 5:44 pm

The Cross in Paragraph 4, I can’t seem to understand from the description what kind of cross appears at the equinoxes. Is it a path or pattern of stars? Where does it appear? How does it ascend or descend. Is this something observed by watching the sun from earth, or designing a 3-D model of movement of celestial objects? It is an interesting fact, nonetheless.


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 12:04 pm


I’m sorry if I was vague, I should have shared a diagram or given explicit definitions. It is the apparent path of the Sun throughout the year: it is observable, but only over a period of months or years. I will read your other comments and fill in any gaps. 🙂



Robert November 16, 2014 at 5:59 pm

The ecliptic. I’m trying to get a handle on what this is from this animated picture in Wikipedia


Robert November 16, 2014 at 6:15 pm

So the ecliptic is the background pattern of stars behind the sun if it could be viewed from earth. The ecliptic out in space is circular band in which we are in the middle, looking out at it. and the band is composed of the 12 Signs of the Zodiac spread out all the way around the band. As the earth orbits around the Sun in one complete 365 day cycle, each month a different Sign would be seen in the background stars behind the Sun (if you could see them apart from the glare of the Sun). When we look out at the milky way at night, we are looking at a portion of the ecliptic that is visible to us at that time.


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 12:14 pm



Robert November 16, 2014 at 7:02 pm

The equator often referred to by Jakob when we are looking up at the stars is not the equator that goes around the center of the earth, but a projection of it into the sky, called more accurately the celestial equator. When we look up at the sky, it is an imaginary circle that goes right through the Zodiac, with some Signs above it, some right on it, and some below it. See to understand how the celestial equator and ecliptic differ slightly. They are both circular almost in the same position in the sky, except they are 23.5 degrees apart because the earth is tilted on its axis 23.5 degrees. When we look up at the sky throughout the year, we can track the imaginary line of the celestial equator, with the ecliptic on which the Zodiac Signs are projected (which is also the path of the sun through the stars) appearing as a sinusoidal pattern. The ecliptic path of the son crosses the celestial equator during the Autumn Equinox (Sept 21) and Spring Equinox (Mar 21). On these days there are equal numbers of hours of day and night.


Robert November 16, 2014 at 7:19 pm

So we can say that during the period from Summer Solstice to Winter Solstice, the sinosoudal path of the sun along the ecliptic is falling (or descending) as it passes through the celestial equator during the Autumn Equinox and continues to descend until it reaches the Spring (Vernal) Equinox. Then it starts to rise (ascend).


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 12:31 pm

Yes, this is all correct: the celestial equator is identical to the equator except that it is projected into the heavens, and during the Summer Solstice the Sun is at what appears to be its highest point. The Solstices are the two extremes, and the Equinoxes are the points of balance. As far as visualizing the process, think of it this way:

-/- Vernal Equinox, Ecliptic ascends from South-North passing through Celestial Equator
-\- Autumn Equinox, the opposite occurs – fall from North-South

On this day both the North and the South receive equal light, after which one falls into autumn and the other ascends into spring. Spring begins when the Northern hemisphere leans toward the Sun – culminating in the Summer Solstice, longest day of the year. This is simultaneously the Winter Solstice in the South, the shortest day as the lower hemisphere is tipped away from the Sun. Thank you for sharing the link, it will surely prove helpful to some.



Robert November 16, 2014 at 7:35 pm

What I think I get from all of this, is that the ancients, like ourselves, liked to explain things through stories, which make a lot of impact, can be easily understood, and easily passed on. Not only did they explain patterns in the stars through stories assigning names of constellations and legends about them, but behind the legend there is a story about divinity, with many levels of symbolism and hidden meanings. Some them are tremendously profound and beautiful. But we may have lost the original meanings through the ages, or they were changed by new cultures that used similar meanings but with a twist that they would put in to suit the new culture. What we see now are hints and suggestions and waifs of meanings that got begged, borrowed and stolen, scattered, or just plain lost. But there is enough left to us that we might be able to put it back together to understand what the ancients knew. They knew a lot more than we will ever know, at least for now. Add on this, that we have validated that when you were born the positions of the stars and planets then affect your personality and destiny, and continue to play this out throughout your life. So it is not just about the stories we make up to transmit wisdom and knowledge that matter, but the stars themselves that affect us.


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 12:49 pm

Absolutely, not only did they manage to map the stars with stories but also to perfect themselves by aligning their progress with that of the Sun. And there are definitely many, many levels to these stories, as all material things have their ethereal counterparts – thus transforming a ‘story’ into an explanation of Divine Forces, as well as astronomical phenomena.

I am in complete agreement, and it is a sad truth that the sands of time consume such beautiful things; but the more we synthesize, the closer we come to a full picture (in my opinion). As far as celestial influence, it’s a very intriguing idea that, I think, may warrant a second look. Especially considering ancient ideas regarding the Sun in relation to Earth.



Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 17, 2014 at 1:42 pm

Jakob, As far as concerning us with the Cosmic Christ I see some nice macrocosmic figures embellishing the biblical meanings, in somewhat implicit ways. But I would like to see some astrological significance corresponding with the Hebrew Yeshua, the healing savior of the soul along with the Greek Krestos healing fire. In other words, the mystical microcosmic completion. Perhaps you may have this in mind for another installment. However, it’s interesting to note that by using these two words as a compound we are able to see that the term Jesus Christ isn’t really a personal name, but rather a title.


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 11:29 am


Admittedly I’m not entirely clear on your distinction between the Greek Christ and Hebrew Yeshua; could you possibly elaborate to some degree on what you associate with Yeshua as opposed to Christ? -I’m very intrigued, especially by the idea that Jesus Christ could be a title, but as far as finding astrological correspondence, in truth I don’t really know what I would be looking for: I generally view Christ as the solar counterpart of the human Yeshu, is this misguided in your opinion?
Am I to interpret Microcosmic Completion as the perfection of Inner Christ on Earth, in following that which is Above? If we were to look at it symbolically, by Yeshua do you mean The Fish? -As opposed to Lamb or Lion?



anny November 22, 2014 at 8:09 am

Jakob and Vernon,

To put in my two cents, I believe it is not the term Jesus Christ that may be seen as a title but the word Christ. To me that looks like the title that is bestowed on a person, any person, who has reached and become the embodyment of the Christ Consciousness. The fact that the term Christ Jesus is also used in the Bible seems to suggest that there might also be or come other Christs.

There are different levels of interpretation possible though. Jeshua is not only a name but also a word. As such it means rescue, salvation, and can be seen as a process. In this respect I see the birthing and gradually embodying of the Christ Consciousness as the process that is the salvation of mankind. Not an outside saviour. And might not that coincide with the healing fire of the Greek Krestos?



Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 22, 2014 at 1:07 pm

What is really most compelling and influential to me in the combined compound of the words Yeshua and Krestos isn’t so much that it may be a title but rather that it is bicultural, and can represent a synthesis of the two main literary and dominant cultures during the time of Christ’s mission on earth, Hebrew and Greek. To me the title concept is of secondary importance. You are most certainly right about the importance of the personal experience of Christ consciousness.

I can see how the Word Jesus, (and Yeshua) alone, apart from the symbolic fire of the graduated Christ experience, is, and should be perceived as a personal name. But, for what it’s worth, I’d like to ask you that if Jeshua is both a name and a word, as you state, is it still possible that it can be used as a title somehow? Titles too are nothing but words and terms. Thanks for your insight Anny.


anny November 22, 2014 at 2:16 pm

I agree with you that the use of these terms can be seen as a synthesis between the Hebrew and Greek cultures at that time, which is great. It is a trend we should follow in a wider context I believe, as in looking for truth within religion instead of for the true religion which does not exist anyway. We should look for what connects us to each other instead of to what divides us and what you show above is just such an example. I also agree that the title aspect does not really play a roll in this.

I do not see the word Jeshua as a title though, only the word Christ; the other possibility of interpretation of the word Christ would be a level of consciousness.

Jeshua I see as either a person (in that case it is a name) or a process (in that case it is a word, that means help, rescue, salvation).

In both cases I do not think you have to choose between the two. Either – or is something of duality. It can be both. As above, so below.

In the case of Jesus the Christ I interpret that as the person who went through the process that leads to reaching the state of Christ Consciousness and showed us the way how to do it. So in him both interpretations would be combined so to speak.

Of course every other person can and will also go through this process and reach this level of awareness but unless he were also called Jeshua, I do not think he could symbolize the process.

Well, that is how I interpret it right now. It is interesting to delve into this stuff. Thank you for giving it to think about.


Jakob Thelen December 2, 2014 at 4:25 pm

Anny and Vernon,

Your responses have been a pleasure to read and consider. I’m sorry that it has taken me such time to reply, renovations and school have kept me very busy. Regarding Christ and Yeshua, I am generally more inclined to the interpretation described by Anny- being that of Process and Christ-Jesus, but the idea of title intrigues me deeply. The synthesis of Greek and Hebrew in this name/title is also quite beautiful, and is definitely ‘a trend we should follow’ in all our endeavours.

I’ve often interpreted “Christ” as the Macrocosmic (whether Solar or Ethereal) ‘Perfect Being’, manifest in the Material as Logos – the Word of Reason, this also being the Universal Christ or Holy Spirit that dwells in All Beings (in my opinion). To me Yehoshua is likely a historical figure that, through Scripture, reveals the Solar Path to Self-Perfection: the correspondence between Man and Sun may be genuine, a demonstration of Process, or both.

In any case, the idea of ‘healing fire’ is incredibly compelling to me and may even end up surfacing in an upcoming article – as it appears to complement and find support in my current understanding of The Second Coming.

Thank you Anny and Vernon for sharing these ideas with me, I will certainly expand upon them in my own mind and delve further into the names/titles of Christ-Jesus.


Robert November 17, 2014 at 5:52 pm

Hi Brother Vern,

Always interested in your probing comments on everyone’s posts. I too would seriouslylke to know more about Jesus Christ as a title and not just a name, if you care to elaborate some.

Also I was wondering what your particular feelings are about the followng four liberal Christian positions (of C.S. Lewis, Thomas Merton, John Donne, and others) that, first, the sacred Bible is not actually the word of God, per se, in itself; but rather carries a word of God to us, especially when we have reached some familiarity with it and mastery over ourselves, so that we can receive from it by interacting freely, beyond doctrinal limitations. Second, that we can receive some measure of the same kind of enlightenment from sacred texts of other religions. Third, that there are core truth within any sacred text that are common to all, and that often must be grasped by first making adjustments for the imperfections in culture and consciousness of the author and the audience the author is addressing. And fourth, that truth as we come to understand it in our spiritual growth is often not absolute, but unfolding in “truthyisms” that lift us closer into the otherwise unfathimable presence of God.


anny November 22, 2014 at 8:20 am

Hi Robert,

Nobody replied to this yet, at least not under this button, but I certainly agree with you on this. There is and has been divine inspiration all through time and within all cultures and we are free to (and even have to) redefine our truth all the time. How else could there be growth in consciousness.



Robert November 23, 2014 at 1:55 pm


I appreciate your comment in support of my evolving perspective on truth.

I like the image of the psalmist describing a fluid-like approach to guidance into truth, “He is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path”. This is a moving image, walking through darkness and having a momentary path lit up just in front of you, and what you witnessed some time ago fading into the shadows.


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 1, 2014 at 12:35 pm


And I am also looking for the New Testament typification to that psalmist scripture. I’ll find it sooner or later. Some of the NT types are not embodied in single verses but are carried in more than one, sometimes hidden in long passages. Typology is a unique subject of which I don’t think Josh has given any adventure to yet in S.O.S. It’s interesting, fun, and expanding looking and discovering the Types & Shadows. – Bro. Vern (Vernon)


Robert December 1, 2014 at 3:15 pm

Brother Vern,

I think there is some fluidity in 1 Corinthians 13, where we are encouraged to be supportive in agape love instead of judgmental, and that, in so doing, revelation of God will progress from temporary spiritual bestowments at a lower level, to more important, yet to be discovered, virtues. For now we see as “through a cloud dimly”. But when we are able to comprehend more of the light, we will be more of a light. Something like that.

I also wondered if seeing types and shadows might be complicated by the inaccuracy and incompleteness in the canonized versions of scripture. The lost Gospels and Gnostic Gospels may have more follow through. Just a thought.

Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 18, 2014 at 12:28 am

Thanks Jakob. Let me assure you that I am coming to you as a student, and you hopefully being the teacher. And you are, in some ways. I was hoping you could elaborate on a few titles of Jesus Christ yourself. I recently saw the Yeshua Krestos (savior/fire) title on the YouTube “Gnosis, Secret Gate to Garden of Eden,” after 59 min. into it. And as a reader of the Christian mystical traditions I have come to discover that the macrocosmic (astrological) views of man and God are much more complete, illuminating and explanative when they illustrate or describe in some manner the corresponding qualities of the microcosmic counterpart; as above, so below. I don’t see why so much esoteric astrology fails to achieve this.

And yes, it very well may be true that the bible itself, as a whole text, is not the word of God ipso facto, but, as you state, carries the inspiration to us. I am of the opinion that the inspired Word is contained in the bible, in different passages in different ways. In much the same way that God hid His divine forces (His Word, His grain, His spark) within us as life itself, having its own angle of light in all of us, scattered, so to speak. Figuratively, as the sea has 100’s of 1000’s of clam shells, very few contain those pearls. And few have the strength to open them, or even find them. And I believe biblical inspiration is somehow ALIVE, magnetically pulling, electrifying specific souls, enlightening the right ones at the right time, for those who seek.

Other religions are true in there own ways. But I believe the Christ consciousness is present and active in all of them. The worshippers just don’t see their God, prophet or spirit as such, due to their spiritual, social and cultural conditioning.

Man is too small to ultimately grasp absolute truth. (BTW, I feel more comfortable calling these high so-called truths as “eternal principles.” There’s many examples where Truth can be proven to be relative, as I’m sure you’re aware of. The Psalm 119:105 is mystically relevant here. In those days at night the lamp could only light a few yards beyond their feet. The Word comes proportionate to us respective to our receptive capability. We can only see so far ahead of ourselves, no matter what the path may be. Thanks, Jakob, for giving me the opportunity to extend my thoughts and insights. Peaceful Thanksgiving. Don’t eat too much desert.


Robert November 18, 2014 at 9:08 pm

Brother Vern,

Thank you for your thoughtful response to my comments. I’m sorry if I confused you to think I am Jakob. I may have been out of place breaking into your questions that you addressed to Jakob. This happens to me a lot on this blog, and each time I wonder if the spirit is trying to tell me something about my connectedness to others with viewpoints that are sometimes common and sometimes different than mine.

I truly enjoyed your reply and I will keep in mind your analogy about the guiding “lamp unto my feet” from Psalm 119:105.

Best regards for your coming thanksgiving,
from the Polar Vortex in North Carolina,



Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 18, 2014 at 11:35 pm

Robert, I didn’t realize that you were actually doing the writing until after I submitted it. I assumed so strongly it was Jakob that I didn’t even bother to look at the name caption, since he has given me prompt replies before. I guess it doesn’t really matter anyway because I know he read it. Sometimes silence can tell us more than anything.

I’d like to emphasize what you stated: “…. the sacred bible is not actually the word of God, in itself but carries a word to us.” This is true for some people who the bible becomes a conduit for them. I don’t believe the Bible, as a whole text is entirely divinely inspired (the word) because it’s also humanly inspired. When Paul wrote “all scriptures are given by inspiration of God” I believe he’s referring also to the preachers and receivers. But it’s not my place to doubt what he believed to be authentically valid. It doesn’t really matter. Perhaps there’s a profound purpose why some folks must believe that as true. A book I think you may enjoy reading is Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism, by John Shelby Spong. Take care.


Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 10:57 am


I’m sincerely sorry for not responding when I read your comment, I meant you no offence and I apologize if it gave you the wrong idea. I appreciate your comments very much, I Always enjoy them.

When I first started this series it was easier for me to respond promptly because I didn’t have as many comments to reply to, but as of late emails and comments have been piling up. I read your post, it made me smile; but then I saw that there were at least 9 others from Robert, and it was quite daunting. I was on my way to bed when I checked and simply wasn’t awake enough for that, I thought it better to wait and give a proper response.

I usually try to set some time aside to address everyone at once, because if I answered you but not him that would be rude. I was going to reply yesterday but my internet wasn’t working, I’m sorry if I made you think I just couldn’t be bothered.

Most Sincerely,



Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 1:50 pm


It seems I originally read this comment – not the other one. This also helps to answer some of my earlier questions. I’ve never seen that documentary, but I will be sure to watch it – it sounds intriguing. I agree, the unity between Above and Below is vast and should be emphasized. I do this to a greater degree in the coming segments, please let me know if they come closer to what you’re describing (the next segment should be ready within 2-3 days). I will try to place greater emphasis on the Spiritual Growth through these stages, aside from the agricultural and astrological aspects.

I am in total agreement with you regarding the Bible: I love that you use the word ALIVE, I too have felt the Life of Scripture – it’s beautiful! Magnetic, too, I know Exactly what you mean. To me, Scripture is the Enlightened Word that passed through the mind of Man. I can’t help feel that God ‘concealed a matter’ in Scripture, while speaking in a language the ancients could understand: how is it that the first few verses of Genesis correspond to both ancient astrology and advanced astrophysics? To me, this is Inspiration; it may appear to varying degrees throughout Scripture, but in both Genesis and Revelation we see very blunt hints at a Higher Author. I can also appreciate your opinion of other religions, all speak of the Universal Christ – under different names. Speaking of which, I almost overlooked your request: I will factor in some of the titles of Christ in following segments, IHS for instance.

A very true observation, I like the Psalm reference. I think this also applies to Scripture in general, God shines through the Books only to the degree that the human author is able to facilitate; that persons capacity for Divine Revelation.
Haha thank you, Happy Thanksgiving to you too.



Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 21, 2014 at 12:30 am

That’s perfectly alright. I had a gut feeling that you were only responding to my first brief comment. Over sighting is so human. However, upon further reflection I don’t think I gave you enough to chew on in that much-too-brief comment. Had I been more extensive you would have had more empathy and optimism. I’ll build here a little more on my initial framework. I presented the title Yeshua/Savior and Krestos/fire, which is the esoteric meaning for Jesus Christ, mainly because it is bicultural and can work as a stepping stone over the different cross currents of Judaic, Judeo-Christian, Eastern Orthodox and other Christian doctrines. (But I never presented them as opposing forces or pairs of opposites, or even suggested it. They complement each other.) It’s just a proposal to illustrate another Cosmic Christ figure with correlated astrology and traditional cosmology. But like you said I really don’t know what I would be looking for, on the astrological and macrocosmic map. So that’s WHY I sought your help, labeling myself a student. However, I’ll suggest Jesus as the “Prince of Peace” on the micro-level. Truly there’s something in the astrological map which could correlate, if one would be willing to look and find it.

The idea is to gather all the different names in the world for “Savior and Fire” from as much different languages as possible. And combine them with a figure of the Cosmic Christ in any artistic way, conceptual or naturally imitative. And then indicate, perhaps with corresponding lines drawn from the body, or head of the figure to the astrological connections.

Our macrocosmic identities and resemblances are not all discovered, and mapped out. There are hidden correlations always awaiting our discovery. And what I meant by the mystical microcosmic completion (the phrase could just as well be macrocosmic) is that most, if not all of them, have been and will continue to be discovered by our higher levels of cognition, in contemplative divine unity. Some call it the superconscience, which is responsible for a lot of great innovations and inventions in life.

Enough of a good thing. I hope this time around I offered enough for some true guidance. – Brother Vern


Jakob Thelen December 4, 2014 at 8:56 pm


Unfortunately that’s very true, we tend to overlook a lot without realizing. I’m sorry you found me to be lacking in empathy/optimism, have I said something that offended you? -If so, I am sorry. Thank you for your in-depth description, it was very helpful. I love your idea, by the way – it’s very original and, I presume, enlightening. I particularly like the mapping idea.

I originally misinterpreted when I read: “I would like to see some astrological significance corresponding with the Hebrew Yeshua, the healing savior of the soul along with the Greek Krestos healing fire. In other words, the mystical microcosmic completion.” When I read this, the two distinctions -Macro and Micro, Yeshua and Krestos- led me to think the two were somehow Reflective – as opposed to Unified, and I deduced that the ‘healing fire’ was the Macro-Solar counterpart of the Micro-Human Yeshua. I now see more clearly.

It should be noted that it’s often difficult to isolate symbols in relation to specific aspects of Christ/Yeshua, due to the complementary or corresponding natures of the two. For example: the Equinoctial Cross of Spring is the Body of the Solar Savior, alluding to both the Healing Fire of Krestos and the Savior of Life/Soul, or Yeshua. Giving it to one or the other seems inappropriate, as many symbols are equally applicable to both titles in this case.

The Cross is our body, and the Heart is the Sun – the Shining Heart, which also appears to be the Rose in the Cross; the Rose-Cross is a Marian and Venusian symbol (seen in later parts). Bearing in mind circumcision (and Zohar), Mary the Heart of the Heart could be Abraham’s Shekhinah (after circumcision the Divine Feminine attached to Abraham).

The title Prince of Peace is almost undoubtedly The Dove, pure and virgin, seen in relation to the Holy Spirit; this would be Corvus, standing near the Grail-Crater of Virgo – the former reminding us of Agnus Dei and the Sacramental Blood, bringing us back to the Cross. It is rather elegantly interwoven, but insofar as ascribing this or that symbol to Yeshua but not Krestos, this is tricky; other titles are easier – like Prince of Peace (Corvus), Agnus Dei (Aries) or Lion of Judah (Leo).

I hope this has been helpful, I’m sorry I don’t have more to offer at this time regarding Yeshua-Krestos. It is worth pointing out, though, that the 12 Zodiac are considered the ‘inner’ signs, while all others are ‘outer’ – the latter being 36 according to Ptolemy. The title IHS will surface in following parts, as well.

Kind regards,



Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 7, 2014 at 11:14 am

Thanks Jakob. Beautiful interpretation. I knew it had to be in there somewhere.

anny November 19, 2014 at 4:45 pm

Hello Jakob,

I have two remarks concerning the quote underneath:

1. Virgo: The Autumn Equinox, September 22nd
o Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles)
o Rosh Hashanah (Head of the Year)

1) You mention Sukkot first, while Rosh Hashanah is not only the start of the Jewish New Year but also of the autumn Holy Days. Sukkot is actually the third one.
2) You leave out the second and maybe most holy of the Holy Days, Jom Kippur, the Day of Atonement.

Rosh Hashanah is the beginning of the fall into matter as the Virgin descends into darkness as the sixth sign (at the end of the ‘sixth day’ of creation).

The Day of Atonement (At-one-ment) takes place during Libra, the seventh sign, the Scales. And of course that is all about the scales, the balancing of everything, in order to recede from the extreme polarities again, back to the centre. It also takes place during the ‘seventh day’ of creation.

The seventh day of creation may be called the day that God rests but it is also called the fourth world, the world of the seventh day, Jom Ha Assiah, the world of doing. It is the day during which Man has to restore the balance s/he disturbed by entering duality and the world of matter. So that is what Jom Kippur is all about, even in the English translation (return to oneness/unity).

You call this sign inanimate; I see in it a call to action as this is what this term Jom Ha Assiah implies. Man has fallen and is still sinking, so we need to pull on the brakes.

Scorpio, the serpent, is the eight sign (now I understand why you thought that the Fall could have taken place on the eight day also), but in my articles I kind of figured out that the serpent more or less stays with us all through the descent (leading us downwards as the nachash, 358), asleep in 3½ coils at the bottom of the cycle, and rising up again as the Kundalini after having been anointed as messiah, mashiach, also 358.

So I see the eighth sign as a foreshadowing, a promise, (a seeding?) of the eighth day of resurrection and ascension, and the seventh sign and the start of the seventh day as a pulling on the brakes in order to slow down and stop the descent before slowly starting the ascent again with the start of the tenth sign, the winter solstice.

On December 21st the light / Christ Consciousness is born but we do not feel the influence for a long time yet.

Of course the seasons follow these movements as well. After the winter solstice the light starts to become stronger but if we expect spring to start right away, we are mistaken. Winter comes first and things seem to get worse instead of better. However, hidden in the depth of the earth and inside the trees everything is in preparation in order to suddenly burst into spring with a riot of colours of flowers and blossoming trees and new life appearing everywhere.

This is finally starting to make some sense to me as it seems to hang together.

Personally I think that all that is going on right now as well, not only within the cycle of one year but also in a larger context.



Jakob Thelen November 20, 2014 at 2:23 pm

Hi Anny,

An astute observation: I was aware that Rosh Hashanah came first, though I hadn’t actually made any attempt to organize it chronologically (perhaps I should have). I did not realize, however, that Rosh Hashanah and Sukkot are part of one greater festival. Whenever I had read about them they were spoken of as distinct celebrations, so I always thought such was the case. I also failed to recognize that Yom Kippur was celebrated at this time, the Day itself had completely slipped my mind. As I was plotting out the seasons I simply listed the Holy-Days that came to mind and wrote them where they occurred, but I will factor Yom Kippur into the next segment.

Your interpretations have been a pleasure to read, and make perfect sense. It’s particularly interesting that the 7th Day is both Rest and Action, almost implying ‘thoughtless’ action – as God, or Mind, was at Rest, and man, or earth, behaved foolishly. So far as the inanimate sign, I say this because all others are animals – save Aquarius and Virgo, Man and Woman. I agree though, that it is a call to Action, or even Aspiration.

Yes, Scorpio is literally the only reason I kept that option open. I am strongly inclined to agree with you in all respects, I’m glad it’s starting to fall together: hopefully it continues to unfold as we proceed, I think the next segment will be very helpful in this regard.

Precisely, after Messiah is born we go back to Egypt, The Black Land – Land of Darkness. I too think this happens on many levels, ranging from personal, communal and cultural to planetary and universal; the ebb and flow that propels us ever onward and upward, with the potential to bring us close or take us far from God. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and observations, I enjoyed reading them.



anny November 21, 2014 at 10:13 am

Hi Jakob,

Thanks for your reply. I am glad you feel I am on the right track there. I am also just feeling my way into a territory that is new to me but I like it.

Rosh ha Shanah is not really part of a greater festival. However, as there are four major Jewish Holidays within one month (you forgot another one, Simchat Torah, which follows immediately after Sukkot) ordinary life almost comes to a standstill as after one Holiday is finished the preparations for the next one get into full swing immediately.

Rosh ha Shanah and Jom Kippur are more or less linked though as Rosh ha Shanah leads into the jamim ha noraim, literally the awe-inspiring days before Jom Kippur. I actually had forgotten about that but those are the days of balancing during which you have to make up with everyone and make right whatever you did wrong during the year that just ended. On Jom Kippur itself that balance should have been reached.

I see what you mean with inanimate now; I never looked at that angle. Interesting.

You write that after Messiah is born we go back to Egypt, the Land of Darkness. I agree but you leave out one aspect here. This flight to Egypt is provoked by the attempt of Herod, the ruling Fear, to extinguish this just awoken/born spark of light. Which of course happened before during the days when Israel was enslaved in Egypt, just before the deepest darkness then.

Both times the intended Messiah (Jesus/Moses) escaped; the spark did not go out but grew into a blazing fire.



Jakob Thelen December 4, 2014 at 9:14 pm


I’m very sorry I missed this comment. I’m happy to read that you like what you’re seeing, hopefully you enjoy what’s to come as well.

That’s interesting, I’m only vaguely familiar with Simchat Torah and hadn’t realized that it was so rapid and ‘sequential’ if you will. Thank you for mentioning the ‘days of balancing,’ as although I knew about making amends, I was also unaware of this culmination in the days leading up to it.

That is very true, Herod is mentioned in later segments but doesn’t get as much attention as he probably deserves, simply because of the other elements that outshine him. I will try to emphasize him to a greater degree where relevant, thank you for your input – it’s always a pleasure. 🙂



anny December 6, 2014 at 5:02 am

Hello Jakob,

Thanks for your reply to my comment. Never mind that it is a bit late. It is difficult to keep track of all those comments sometimes and I have also had the experience that not all of them showed up in my mailbox for whatever reason.

Simchat Torah is a very joyful festival, which shows the love of the Jews for the Torah. Christians so often interpret it as only laws and commands and feel that the ‘God of the Old Testament’ is not as loving as the God of the New Testament, but when you see the love of Jews for the Torah you know this cannot be the case.

I never thought so anyway as to me the Bible has always been One and God also. At most you can see different interpretations of something that cannot really be put into words.

I personally attended a Simchat Torah celebration in an ancient synagogue in Safed in Israel where I watched the men dancing around with a Torah scroll in their arms. You could feel the love with which they were doing it. I was very impressed by it; the only thing I was unhappy about was the roll allotted to women in this festival, that of the onlooker just like I was. For myself I did not mind as I am not Jewish after all.

You write that you did not give as much attention to Herod as he probably deserves because of the other elements that outshine him. Of course I do not know what elements you mean by that but I would like to emphasize that he figures very much as the Fear that still keeps the majority of people captivated during the process of the rebirth of the Christ Consciousness in the world right now. He is not just a historical figure of the past. He was defeated then and will be now but he does merit attention.


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 23, 2014 at 12:11 am

Thanks, Anny. I had to respond down at the bottom because I had no immediate follow-up reply button. And I hope you find this. You have given me deeper enrichening insights to my own thesis. And I appreciate it. I think I can see the reason why, or at least the main reason why some people can not accept the names Jesus or Jeshua to be used as a title. Because salvation is greatly revered as a personal experience initiated and provided by God, (in their ways of thinking) who’s name must be worshipped as integral to their doctrine. And the name they use is above all others, thus degrading to lower it under its object of worship. And I have to respect this. Especially for the Fundamentalists who, at least most of them, equate Jesus 100% with Christ as a name and don’t know much, if anything at all about the reality of Christ as part of our personal evolution of consciousness. That’s there natural and spiritual level which is right where they should be and belong. I know people in the Apostolic Pentecostal Faiths and I love them for what they ARE, not for what they know or have attained to. That’s how God loves us too, for what we ARE.

Your were right in your previous comment that the process of the Christ Consciousness as the salvation of mankind is within and doesn’t come from an outside savior. And the reason why I’m interested in linking up astrology with a Cosmic Christ illustration is to try and depict this; as we know: “there is no inner without an outer.” A paraphrase for “as above, so below.” There may be a little in the Zodiac to find, such as Capricorn and Virgo. But I think a lot of it may be found in non-zodiacal correlations, in other constellations, such as Lyra. Orpheus predates the likeness, character and spirit of Christ, and the historical Jesus. But there could be no accurate natal chart for Jesus because we don’t know exactly when he was born in the flesh. Yet it also may be true that Jesus is not subject to celestial influences because of his virgin birth and Godly status. Perhaps the elements of traditional cosmology would be more appropriate, instead of astrology. It was nice learning from you Anny, and I think it would be a good experience for me to know you personally. – Have a beautiful Thanksgiving. Bro. Vern (Vernon)


anny November 23, 2014 at 11:43 am

Hi Vernon,

Thanks for your comment. I am glad that what I wrote helped you in getting more insight into your own thesis. It seems to work that way. I experienced the same with pointers that Joshua and others provided me with.

I completely agree with you that we should respect people for who and what they are and not for what they know or do not know. That belongs to unconditional love anyway. And who are we to think that we know it all; we do not by a long shot. We are each evolving in our own way and in our own time and that is how it should be.

As far as linking Christ to astrology or cosmology, that really is a completely new field to me that I only hesitatingly feel my way around in, at least in that part which Jakob showed about the zodiac. I vaguely remember Orpheus from my Greek mythology in school but that was more than half a century ago. I remember I liked the stories but did not have the faintest idea of the symbolical meaning of all that. It was just in preparation for our study of ancient Greek. Right now astrology and mythology are not my main sphere of interest though as the esoterical interpretation of the Hebrew texts of the Bible (wherever possible, I do not automatically see a meaning in every text) takes up more than enough of my time.

You write: Yet it also may be true that Jesus is not subject to celestial influences because of his virgin birth and Godly status.

What exactly do you mean by his virgin birth and godly status? Do you interpret this in the literal sense as you presume they might free him from this influence?

Personally I am not so sure that the place and date of our birth really determine our life. I see it more as a definition of the circumstances in which we are born and it is up to us to determine what we will do with them.

I believe that the virgin birth and godly status are part of the symbolical meaning of the Bible stories. Virginity is purity and a person who wants to give birth to the Christ Consciousness and become an embodyment of it, will need to go through this salvation process first in order to make him or her pure again. The godly status will be a result of all that. We are divine in origin after all as we are sparks of the Fire that God is.

As far as getting to know me better, last year, from October 30th till the end of January of this year, I have written twelve articles that show a lot of where I am coming from, and two of them share quite something about my personal life too. Besides that I also shared a lot in comments to other people’s articles. That should give you a headstart in getting to know me and save me the time to have to tell everything all over again.

If you do not mind, I’ll keep to calling you Vernon. I am not so much into the Bro. thing.

I do wish you a very Happy Thanksgiving. I will not be celebrating this holiday as I live in the Netherlands and we do not know it here.




Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) November 23, 2014 at 3:00 pm

I appreciate your responses, especially where you stated: “I see it more as a definition of the circumstances in which we are born and it is up to us to determine what we will do with them.” I agree. No one knows for certain if predictions stated by the astrologer themselves actually have a direct influence on people. It’s all in the power of the believer to make things happen. We have that power due to our awareness.

It may have been true that Jesus, in his earthly incarnation did not subject himself to astrological influences because of his inherent awareness of his power. He had the awareness to free himself, as we all do. I should have stated “….. Jesus ‘may not have been’ subject to celestial influences….” I didn’t actually mean here and now in the present. My mistake. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I’m too fast of a thinker at times. And Jesus was not the only person with the Godly status of a virgin birth. I think Plato, as well as other renowned human beings were born of virgins. (There are audio tapes by Anthony Fisichella ” Well Of Wisdom” series, where he speaks on the life of Jesus and other virgin births). And their virgin birth of course, do not free them from celestial influences, it is up to their own power.

And I admire your other comments, as well as your interest in my writing.

As far as my title goes, (Brother Vern), that is just a custom respective within the church, for those who specifically prefer it. And I included my name in parenthesis for you, in case you didn’t notice. I explained this in one of my previous articles on this web site. It’s been nice trading thoughts with you, including the humble ones. If there’s any thing else you fail to understand just drop me a note and I’ll try again to explicate. Bro. Vern, (Vernon)


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 1, 2014 at 11:42 pm


I think that Pauline scripture fits in well typifying what I previously mentioned about the psalmist light and lamp.

And yes it’s probably more difficult to match the meanings between the Old & New books due to those complications. We could no doubt find a good deal in the Lost & Gnostic gospels, the apocrypha, the apocalypse and even the gospel of Judas.

I also see it this way. Even though there are inaccuracies and incompleteness in the canonized versions I think there was an inbuilt safety guiding the translators and overseeing the scholars who dared changing things. They could only change so much, in limited ways. It’s very possible that inspiration worked through them in their negative ways as well. After all the Bible is a coded book, and the Holy Spirit gives access for the guided ones. I believe this is one of the reasons (if not the main reason) why the King James Version came about. Different than the other translations, such as St. Jerome’s Vulgate from the Hebrew, it is a compiled translation from many different sources and makes up for some of the lost and altered. I don’t see the King James Version as the elementary version for fundamentalists. But the result of the greatest objective of the inspired Word, which is to teach us how to live successfully in this life.


Robert December 2, 2014 at 1:44 pm

Brother Vern,

I guess I relate to the behavior and motives of people I have encountered in the past who have argued strongly for biblical inerrancy or biblical preservation, and I find that I take their behavior more heavily into account than their arguments. The same goes for the KJV being superior. When I accepted those arguments, I was what I refer to now as a fundamentalist groupie. But now that I question those arguments, I remember what these people did and how they treated me and others. If I am totally honest, I remember how I treated others when I was a groupie. In retrospect, it left a lot to be desired, although I was not aware of that then. The last person I knew who pushed inerrancy and preservation on me invited me to leave their bible study because I questioned their judgmental attitudes towards all Muslims. They were so bigoted that even my personal bigotry toward Muslims seemed saintly. The second to last person who pushed it on me invited me to leave their bible study because I would not automatically agree with their acceptance of doctrines of a Hebraic roots cultic leader named Rabbi Michael Rood. I admit that preservation may not be the faulty doctrine, but simply included in a package of other faulty doctrines and applied in a faulty way. The package includes strict literal interpretation of the bible, rejection of biological evolution, and suspecting that you are not saved or acceptable to God if you disagree with them on more than a fraction of a point.

Looking back, I will admit, I was more sincere than I was tactful in questioning people’s cherished doctrines. Lessons learned.

Since you are in no way like them or like I was, this opens up a new door to examine the doctrine of biblical preservation and superiority of the KJV. My first thought is to go back to my SOS post “Is There Only One Holy Book?” at The renowned Sufi philosopher Hazrat’s third of his famous “Ten Thoughts” is “There is (only) one Holy Book, the sacred manuscript of nature, the only scripture which can enlighten the reader. Most people consider as sacred scriptures only certain books or scrolls written by the hand of man, and carefully preserved as holy, to be handed down as divine revelation. Men have fought and disputed over the authenticity of these books, have refused to accept any other book of similar character, and, clinging thus to the book and losing the sense of it, have formed diverse sects. The Sufi has in all ages respected all such books, and has traced in the Vedanta, Zend-Avesta, Kabbalah, Bible, Quran, and all other sacred scriptures, the same truth which he or she reads in the incorruptible manuscript of nature, the only Holy Book, the perfect and living model that teaches the inner law of life. All scriptures when compared to nature’s manuscript, are like little pools of water before the ocean. To the eye of the seer every leaf of the tree is a page of the Holy Book that contains divine revelation, and he or she is inspired every moment of life by constantly reading and understanding the holy script of nature.”

To that I add the ultra-progressive Christian doctrine that the bible is NOT the word of God, but CARRIES a word of God to you, in a sense that it is a vehicle, and not the only vehicle, for inspiring divine light to take root and spring forth from you.

The transmission of the bible down through the ages has been mostly accurate from a certain ancient point of origin. That point of origin is not the original manuscripts. Those were lost or hypothetical. Large sections of OT scriptures were added on at some before the point of origin. We will never know all of what was taken out… at least very easily (but some of that might be found in other sacred texts). But transmission has been highly faithful from that point of origin. That does not mean people did slip in something here and there, not just spelling errors as the fundamentalist’s “doctrine of preservation” contends.

The KJV did exactly what you say it did for that time period. So it is an excellent version, but not the “holiest”. The scholars who produced it lived in an age of vassals and lords, which to us is a primitive authority structure, and that mentality leaks through. “Jesus is Lord. We are the vassals.” Some people like it. Some don’t. Some like the poetic language. Some don’t. I often quote the new KJV because it is commonly accepted and familiar, unless I find another version that is easier to understand or emphasizes a nuance in meaning that I want to convey. The fact that there are important nuances that are missing in the KJV means that these other versions had a touch of preservation that the KJV lacked.

I should note that I have an aversion for charismatic prophets who prophesy to the church in old KJV because they exploit the authority sounding tone of it. I would prefer “I think the spirit is speaking through me when I say …..” to the phony “THUS SAYETH THE LORD, thou shallt ……”. But some people like it.

I do think the spirit guides and inspires all of us in our words and actions, and if we were to replay a lot of it and analyze it, we would find coded structures in it speaking more meaning out of it. The modern physics quantum principle applies that the meaning is not fully in it and is influenced highly by our interaction with it. When we begin to realize this and notice it, we wake up and begin to appreciate the divine nature of everything and everyone around us.

It is easier and more tradition to find the invisible footprint of God in a reference text like the bible. But I would not make the discovery of any kind of coding as the main evidence for the text’s authenticity. We can be easily fooled. I have seen this now several times where some bible teacher uses coded or chiastic structures in scriptures to get everyone excited and then lead them into a false conclusion… for instance that so and so is the anti-Christ and that Armageddon will start on a particular day, etc. When coding is inspired from the right motive, it is a miracle; but from the wrong motive it is the all time gimmick of the ages. This is what I mean by the modern physics quantum effect – the observer affects the observation. We found that out by looking at photons passing through narrow slits, which acted like particles when we were not directly looking at them and waves when we were. From there we began to extrapolate that we are connected to the events we observe, and without us they are not the same event, but we have been blind to this effect called quantum entanglement… it is not easily recognizable in every day situations. But now knowing this, puts a whole new meaning into everything. Our observations of each other connects us in a quantum physical manner, so that we are all one humongous entangled event.

The only thing else I can think to say about all this right now is expressed in the book “The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It” by Peter Enns. You can peak inside the cover for free at Amazon

Thank you for opening up this opportunity for us to explore this part of the event.



Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 2, 2014 at 11:50 pm

Thanks Robert. You have so much experiential acquaintances with this subject I really don’t know where or how to sum up the adequate reply it deserves. I can’t call it extravagant because I’m learning some valuable things from you, not only from our own conversing but from some of your replies to others as well. You’re quite an open controversialist. And I have noticed a peculiar fair balance and discernment between your spirit of criticism and your spirit of enlightenment in some of your writings. And I respect you for that.

However, “the word of God” can have a different meaning to different people. I can agree with your position that the Bible is not entirely the inspired “word of God.” But I would have to ask why ? Why wasn’t it possible that certain individuals chosen by the spirit were vehicles or mediums for its expression? Some of the Bible is, and some of it is not truly inspirational. My personal (and experiential) belief is that divine inspiration IS contained in the Bible, in certain ways and places. While at the same time I can side with you that the Bible works as a vehicular conduit of inspiration, for specific souls, as you state it carries inspiration to us. Do you see a difference between “inspiration” and the “word of God?” That’s the bottom line question from me to you. The Bible, or word of inspiration can work differently for us all. Why can’t it all be true, within our own little limited angles of perception?


Robert December 3, 2014 at 2:46 pm

Brother Vern,

When people who have wasted their lives turn from their helplessness to become born again Christians, the structure and simplicity of a very regimented church environment is a safe place for them to catch their wind and grow spiritually. They often have addictive behaviors from their previous lives, and gain strength to overcome them by knowing that the all powerful, forgiving God who loves them has drawn a line in the sand that thou shalt not cross, that He has transmitted His laws by overshadowing authors so that it may appear in black and white. God said it, not the author. Better obey, one God, one way.

The same people with addictive personalities who were saved from the world at large, soon become addicted to church with its good and bad aspects. And there they will stay, half human saved by grace, half robot conditioned by a limited vision of truth, unless something else happens.

The bible inerrancy movement in the late 20th century was the response of the conservative churches to keep the sheep from straying into all sorts of foils in the modern secular world, or jumping ship to a liberal church. But it is not sustainable as truth, and not sustainable at all unless you brainwash the sheep.

Sincere Christians who escaped brainwashing looked for different models of bible authenticity, trying them on, seeing how they fit. We are still doing that. We are at different places in this. We compare notes and have learned to respect each other’s journeys. I can accept that your spin on things is what you need for comfort and growth. I am not even 80% sure of my spin on things. I might try something else on for size when I come across it.

Right now I am comfortable with the bible and conservative Christianity as an old and honored friend, rather than an ultimate truth. I am rethinking everything, but I have never forgotten my old and honored friend, who still has plenty of good advice when I need some.

I certainly cannot rule out that some of the bible authors were especially inspired and directed by what we refer to as a higher power. Maybe the people that selected the canon and developed doctrines that have filtered down to us were sometimes touched in some way by that higher power to do what they did for a purpose in their day. Princeton bible scholar Elaine Pagels believes that the political machines suppressed a lot of what the higher power might have desired for us, driving the persecuted Gnostic branches of Christianity underground, and beginning to resurface as something to be considered. Was this accidental or pre-planned by the higher power?

What is the higher power? We have had all sorts of models describing who or what is watching over us. The more I feel I get closer to it, the less concern I have for defining it, and the more I am able to experience my being as part of it, and the more positive effect it has on me and the more positive effect I have on the world around me. I am thankful for this gift.


Robert December 3, 2014 at 12:54 pm

Brother Vern,

I am glad you were able to learn something from me going off and throwing a lot of new ideas out there that I am learning. The way I now see it, once we have discovered that we live in a quantum world of entaglement, and that we have a superidentity that observes ourself as part of the environment, and more easily connects with what we were used to calling spirituality, then objectivity and intuition begin to balance out excessive authority structures that we grew up with and put a check on self-validating circular logic. “Thge old things have passed away, behold, new things have come.”

I see the value of being trained as a child to do and not do things mommy tells us that are right and wrong, when we are too young to evaluate the intrinsic right and wrong for ourselves. There is a biblical proverb that says “Train up a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it.” We are creaures of conditioning. But there is also a point where a reality hits parents in the face, known as “Train up a child in the way you insist he should go, and at some point when his own discernment kicks in, he will surely for his own good depart from it.” Survival of our species requires change and flexibility, and something within us is wired to explore new ways while guarding the old from changing too fast.

Smart parents will give their older children the tools and encouragement to explore and provide a safe and limited range for them to do so.

I have to leave the computer I am on right now, so I will finish up later.


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 4, 2014 at 2:24 am

Thanks again Robert,

I think some of your evaluation of the common Christian who finds God and His so-called Word is realistic, but all of it isn’t accurate. You seem to view the discovery, as well as the sustainable walk of the new believer (and Christianity in general) in a pessimistic, rather than in a broad comprehensive way. For instance, you like the convenient and secularly displaced phrase “brainwashing.” Sincere pastors do not deliberately try to FORCE their saints into believing the way they do. It is not the hallmark of any true pastor. Brainwashing is Forcing indoctrination in order to induce people to surrender and accept contrasting regimented ideas or beliefs. Brainwashing works well, especially in other countries when engaging political correctness on their citizens. And although there is a secondary generic definition in America which means something to the effect “persuading with propaganda or salesmanship,” still the spirit in the phrase is always possessed with the meaning to force. I’m not saying that brainwashing techniques are not applied by some pastors in this country, God forgive them if they do, but it is never the intent or desire of any sincere and heart-feeling preacher to FORCE doctrine upon their followers and newcomers. True Christian Pastors P-Reach (“Preaching” is also known as a compound for PastorReaching) that God must be freely accepted by the recipient, without any form of coercion whatsoever. That’s what Christianity is basically all about, honoring the freedom of the spirit, which is the true hallmark of any sincere Pastor. There are gross exaggerations pinned on many preachers that their messages of damnation, hellfire & brimstone are used as scare tactics. But nothing could be further from actuality in the hearts of sincere preachers. They know their own consequences if they dare to abuse the authority of biblical stipulations, which are placed in their hearts, not on any written agreement. Ordination is a sacred contract between the Holy Spirit and man. Couldn’t it be true that the literal meaning of Hell was also intended as part of the Word for those who dare to glorify in it as vengeance for their different disbelievers and antagonists? Do not such people create their own Hell here and now?

Sincere Christians who enable themselves to rise above the baser levels of human ignorance and weakness of growth do indeed find different models of bible authenticity. They are drawn toward their own like in the mystical body of Christ. And what they truly discover isn’t only another building or fold, but their own higher powers. That’s what Paul meant when he stated that doctrine is for the edifying of the mystical body, or the Church. What is the higher power? It is that which we discover in ourselves while we enlighten ourselves. I am of the firm conviction that most of these enlightened Christians never really forsake the former “assemblies of themselves” but return to them as living witnesses. Not as witnesses for knowledge and the truth but as witnesses for faith and love. Our Truth naturally and normally follows through when the latter has been reached and exemplified. I will end with ST. John 1,12. With faith and love we are given the power (higher?) to become the Sons of God. Can we really comprehend the power embodied inside that eternal principle? Robert, thanks again for giving me another opportunity to share my experience and insights. Bro. Vern (Vernon)


Robert December 4, 2014 at 2:56 pm

Brother Vern,

I understand your point of view from the perspective of what church pastors and church members might believe they are doing. Their good will and sincerity is usually not in question. They are following the program and conditioning they know and look to it as a light. And it is a light compared to many forms of darkness. It has its place.

The other side of the coin is the reaction of people who awaken from years of being conditioned in that program and realize it is not just imperfect, but entirely flawed. I speak for them.

If you want to get a taste of what that feels like, watch the new Tom Cruise movie “Oblivion”. Something inside makes them question, and they resist awakening until the evidence is overwhelming. Then they are shocked and angry. They feel they have been deceived for years by the system that told them to trust it. They want to go back and awaken everybody in it, usually not realizing the skills that will be needed to make one inch of change in one person.

And then the old system comes after their new belief system, pointing fingers, maligning, countless propaganda from apologists “defending the faith” never realizing how much they are perpetrating lies.

I speak for the people who legitimately feel like they were brainwashed. That is how they feel. There are lots and lots of them. There will be more and more of them unless the old system reforms. The current Pope understands that. It’s undeniable. The emergent church has tried to become more relevant to the new generation, using new toys to teach the same old system lessons. More groupies is not we need.


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 4, 2014 at 11:55 pm

Dear Robert,
I hope your sincere sympathy and compassion for the desponded and heart broken Christians you diligently stand for may be consoled with the proper amount of light they need. I’m also familiar with Christians who have awakened to the fallibility of the Church they have spent years, and even decades with. But they don’t seem to view it as something to hate. They seem to be willing to accept what they’ve been through as a growth experience, refusing to see it as a mistake. They seem to have a sense in knowing that they helped create their own sets of circumstances and situations in this imperfect life. – Bro. Vern (Vernon)


Robert December 5, 2014 at 1:19 am

Brother Vernon,

I do not hate the traditional church. I’m glad there others who have outgrown the dogma without as many scars. The controversial preacher Rob Bell will have a TV show on the Oprah channel starting on December 21st, and the traditional church is up in arms about it. See if you can watch it. You are sure to hear about it even if you don’t. The apologists are going to try to pull a few punches to discredit him. Try to listen to them also. Then you may understand why I don’t go fishin’ with those guys any more.


Robert December 5, 2014 at 11:44 am

Brother Vern,

Well it seems that Rob Bell’s religious critics aren’t wasting any time. Check out this attack in the Huffington Post religious section. It is not that I don’t respect the conservative Christian view. I do. I am unhappy with them because they claim to be the good guys, but they don’t fight fair. I guess I haven’t gotten over that yet. I am still in the stage of being surprised by hypocrisy. I haven’t learned the next lesson as well as I should, that we are all entangled in a universal oneness, and that experiencing conflict among us can be a cue to push for one’s transcendence towards the source that is the solution. How is your transcendence going?


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 5, 2014 at 1:32 pm

You caught me just before I have to go in for work. I can’t respond again until 1 am in the morning. I’ll have to watch that show online later. For your question: If I understand it correctly, I’m really only concerned about transcending things that affect me personally, in my own little world. The way and condition of the big outer world around me doesn’t effect me enough to want to change it. The adversary (the collective darkest will of mind-kind (mankind) is allowed to rule and control this world. But it doesn’t rule mine. The world around us, including our own is inherently flawed. The world-ruling mind doesn’t want a solution, it’s content with the way things are. I think a better and stronger word you could use in that context of thinking is overcoming, instead of “transcendence.”


Robert December 5, 2014 at 11:00 pm

Brother Vern,

I like your idea of changing you instead of the world. I think when consciousness progresses, some parts of the surrounding world automatically seems to improve as long as you don’t advertise. There is a lot to be said for saving your energy for personal overcoming (or transcendence). I think you are more comfortable using terms and models from conservative Christianity, even though they mean something more profound to you than their common usage. Some of us avoid those terms and models because they remind us of the unfortunate limitations and corruptions that were applied to them.


anny December 6, 2014 at 6:08 am

Hello Robert and Vernon,

I like your discussion and the way you take each other seriously.

I agree with Vernon that the only thing we can change is ourselves. You are inclined to take on the world, Robert, as you once wrote yourself in other words but it cannot be done. Overcoming our own problems is something we can do and by doing that, we are changing our consciousness which I would also call transcending like you do.

By becoming different beings as it were we do change the world also, as we are all one, and by changing our frequency, to use another term, we are changing the frequency of the whole as well and make it easier for the others to change themselves also.

It is about being more than about doing!

We tend to forget that (or I do). Putting the emphasis on doing is very appealing to the ego, especially when our actions get results. But precisely that can pull us off course as it were.

I know that from experience. Fortunately in this phase of our processes we immediately get a warning sign because all response stops coming which makes me realize what I am doing and move back to the centre again. And then the results will be there again, but often I will not know anything about them. Nor do I need to.

I too am more comfortable with the continued use of terms (I do not know about models) from Christianity and I would not call that conservative Christianity either because I never was a conservative Christian but we used those terms too, most of them anyway. Even though I have left my church because I do not agree with the doctrine and dogma part, I still feel close to Christianity in other ways as I have known so many authentic Christians all my life, who were or are all about unconditional love and not about doctrine at all.

And I do agree with you Robert that these ‘old’ terms mean something very profound to Vernon and me, but they do also to all these authentic Christians to whom unconditional love comes first as well, conservative or not.

I do understand that people who have a very difficult past in some church, do not want to use the terms they were raised with anymore and so use new ones but for me these new terms are more or less uncomfortable as they seem to reject my past, which I do not want to do as I consider my experiences within the church, and my growth there, as very valuable.


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 6, 2014 at 2:52 pm

To Robert & Anny,
Thanks Anny. I’ll never forget what Marrianne Williamson said in one of her broadcasts (and video) when introducing the Renaissance Alliance (now called “The Peace Alliance”) some years ago: “The love in our hearts, when embraced and extended, and applied as principle to external events has the extraordinary and even miraculous power to change things.” Thanks for these strong synthetic insights.

And Robert, I just want to add that we all are born with both preservative and Liberal instincts, as you probably know. But because of this these instincts, or attitudes have a tendency to synthesize and merge, if we allow it, when we get into religious matters and the spiritual realm. Proponents of the late 1800’s Transcendentalist Movement corroborates this. Here’s our dialectical handshake: the overcoming process, which requires physical and emotional will, moral resistance and ascetic discipline can work as a catalyst in transcending our natural tendencies to think in polarized ways. How and why that is to me is a metaphysical mystery. The practices of transcending or polarities is probably the most important aspect in developing higher consciousness. – Bro. Vern (Vernon)


Robert December 6, 2014 at 8:40 pm

Amen, and Amen. “Gimme dat ole time religion, gimme dat ole time religion, gimme dat ole time religion, its good enough for me.”

“Brothers and Sisters, send $137 into my paypal account in the next 7 minutes and see if I will not open up a windex in heaven that will clean you out. 🙂


Vernon McVety Jr. (Bro. Vern) December 7, 2014 at 6:35 pm

Jakob thank you much for placing and interpreting those Christian astrological figures for me. I knew something had to correspond somewhere in the macrosphere. Beautiful job. Bro. Vern


Jakob Thelen January 1, 2015 at 4:52 pm

It was my pleasure, Vern, I’m glad it was helpful; I apologize for the earlier confusion.
Happy New Year,


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